Rule Clarifications

[Hypersmurf]

And a key part of OAs is that a ranged power is not necessarily a ranged attack. So powers that work at range but are not attacks, do not cause OAs.

As well as the text of Opportunity Actions on p268, also check the text of Opportunity Attack on p290 - "If an enemy adjacent to you uses a ranged power or an area power, you can make an OA".

-Hyp.

 

[DracoSuave]

The first is incorrect. All effects of a power with a keyword are considered to have that keyword. All effects of a power with Psychic and Fear are considered Psychic and Fear effects. Damage doesn't have keywords, it has damage types.

Damage types are not the same thing as keywords, even tho keywords often indicate damage types the power deals.

So let's say you have a power that deals fire damage, then poison damage, then scares them off. This power would have the Fire, Poison, and Fear keywords. Anything that keys off of or modifies powers with these keywords affects the entire power. Hellfire Blood, for example.

There are only a few instances where something has a keyword that the entire power itself does not have. These instances are when a power explicitly gives a keyword to a singular effect ("This effect has the fear keyword" on a power that does not have the Fear keyword) or when extra damage is assigned to a power that has a specific damage type (Burning Blade adds fire damage to what you deal, but does not make your powers Fire powers.) The general rule, however, is that all effects of a power share all that power's keywords, unless explicitly stated otherwise. (Try using Prismatic Ray with out that rule and Hellfire Blood--you can't, it does not work elegantly.)

So in the case of resistance/immunity it's pretty simple to understand. Resistance keys off of -damage types.- Immunity keys off of -keywords.- And keywords are in the header of the power, and apply to the whole power.

 

[DracoSuave]

Skill usage isn't a power, and even if it were a power, unless it explicitly says it's has the ranged or area attack type, it would not trigger Opportunity Attacks.

And 'attack type' doesn't mean it's an attack either.

 

[DracoSuave]

Lastly, anyone who thinks you can't collide with someone and have them be pushed in a third direction doesn't understand physics or has never played pool.

Watch yourself some football, and notice that players sometimes push opponents to the side when they knock them away.

 

[Gruns]

Your incorrect is incorrect.

The first is incorrect. All effects of a power with a keyword are considered to have that keyword. All effects of a power with Psychic and Fear are considered Psychic and Fear effects. Damage doesn't have keywords, it has damage types.

Damage types are not the same thing as keywords, even tho keywords often indicate damage types the power deals.

So let's say you have a power that deals fire damage, then poison damage, then scares them off. This power would have the Fire, Poison, and Fear keywords. Anything that keys off of or modifies powers with these keywords affects the entire power. Hellfire Blood, for example.

There are only a few instances where something has a keyword that the entire power itself does not have. These instances are when a power explicitly gives a keyword to a singular effect ("This effect has the fear keyword" on a power that does not have the Fear keyword) or when extra damage is assigned to a power that has a specific damage type (Burning Blade adds fire damage to what you deal, but does not make your powers Fire powers.) The general rule, however, is that all effects of a power share all that power's keywords, unless explicitly stated otherwise. (Try using Prismatic Ray with out that rule and Hellfire Blood--you can't, it does not work elegantly.)

So in the case of resistance/immunity it's pretty simple to understand. Resistance keys off of -damage types.- Immunity keys off of -keywords.- And keywords are in the header of the power, and apply to the whole power.

I believe that you're incorrect here. The OP made the right call about the psychic damage sticking, but the penalty not sticking.
While I'll agree that Resistance only cares about damage types, I'm not sure why you think immunity doesn't care about damage types. The description of immunity specifically mentions two things: damage types and "ill effects". Being that the damage in this case is clearly Psychic damage, immunity to Fear doesn't matter, as it is not Fear damage. Due to the fact that the effect has the Fear keyword though, the ill effect of the -1 penalty is of course ignored.
Later
Gruns

Immune: The monster has immunity to the stated kind of damage or effect. For example, a monster with "immune poison" never takes poison damage and can't suffer any other ill effect from a poison attack.

 

[DracoSuave]

Immunity -does- care about keywords. But a power's effects all have the keywords of that power, so immunity does not discriminate between one half of a power and another half, especially when the effects of that power make no difference as to which is what and the other?

Psychic and Fear, you can honestly distinguish between where one ends and one doesn't based on a single sentance? It isn't so simple that 'one applies here, and another applies here' can be executed consistantly. Fear is not Psychic? Come on. That's dumb.

If a power has a keyword, all its effects have that keyword, so immunity does not discriminate. There -are- cases where effects have a keyword where the power does not, and when it does it is -explicit- and -certain.- This case, is neither, and therefore in absense of an exception it follows the general rule.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Hmm ... so Dracosuave, you would say that a poison-immune creature would be entirely immune to a prismatic spray?

 

[DracoSuave]

Yes, I am. Just as someone who gets a bonus to fire attacks gets to be more accurate with the poison part of the Prismatic Spray.

If they were meant to be seperately keyworded, they would be. There is precident in the game for this.

 

[Gruns]

Psychic damage...

Immunity -does- care about keywords. But a power's effects all have the keywords of that power, so immunity does not discriminate between one half of a power and another half, especially when the effects of that power make no difference as to which is what and the other?

Psychic and Fear, you can honestly distinguish between where one ends and one doesn't based on a single sentance? It isn't so simple that 'one applies here, and another applies here' can be executed consistantly. Fear is not Psychic? Come on. That's dumb.

If a power has a keyword, all its effects have that keyword, so immunity does not discriminate. There -are- cases where effects have a keyword where the power does not, and when it does it is -explicit- and -certain.- This case, is neither, and therefore in absense of an exception it follows the general rule.

Nobody is disputing that the entire power contains the Fear keyword. (As well as the Arcane, Implement and Psychic keywords). The fact of the matter is that when it comes to damage reduction, immunity to Fear only stops all Fear damage. And the damage in this case is NOT Fear damage. It's Psychic. The unamed -1 penalty IS a Fear (and Arcane, Implement, Psychic) effect.

Later!
Gruns

 

[heregon]

Thanks for the speedy responses! I was a bit surprised by the Heal check, but the more I think about it, the less it bothers me.

DracoSuave's post confuses me a bit, lets use the spined devil's rain of spines ability as an example to see if I got this right

It has both the fire and poison keywords, and it has a primary and secondary attack. The first is stated as fire damage, and if it hits the secondary attack goes ahead

1) I assume that if the first hit is made against a PC with fire resistance that the damage is resolved and the secondary attack is made. What if the PC is immune to fire? Would the second attack (with the poison ongoing and unspecified slow) be allowed?

2) In the secondary attack, is the slow ability a poison attack by default since it is grouped with the ongoing poison damage? If the PC is immune to poison, would it still be slowed? If this is not the case, how is it resolved?

Thanks in advance!