Rule Question: Sorcerer Spell List

[laiyna]

hi,

There are questions made if it is posible to switch spells with a sorcerer when he/she levels. So for Example at level 4 to 5 to Sorcerer gets a new 2e level spell, but the Player wants to swap his other 2e level spell also. So he got 2 new 2e level spells.

As far as I know this is not posible, but when the argument broke out the simpel answer of the player was, where does it stand I can not do this? There only stands that I only get new spells when I raise in level.

I guess you all know now what I'm looking for. I could not find it, where does it stand that a sorcerer can not change his spells for spells he already has choosen.

thanks,

Laiyna

 

[Teydyn]

AFAIK there is no rule that you can CHANGE a spell you have...

on the other side would it be that bad to allow a sorcerer to change spells? 1 per level gained? I dont think so, but that would be a house rule

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

We house-ruled that a Sorcerer could change a spell upon leveling with the following restrictions:

A) it had to be a spell slot two levels below his current max, ie if he could cast third level spells, he could swap out a 1st level slot.

B) Since spellcasting is a natural ability for Sorcerers instead of a learned skill, the new spell had to be from the same school as the old one (in essence, the Sorcerer figured out how to alter an existing ability rather than learn a completely new one).

C) He had to make a spellcraft check at DC 15+Spell level of the new spell to be learned

 

[Crothian]

WEll, you have to remmeber that some spells loose effectiveness as one gains levels. Sure, that sleep spell is great at first level, but at 10th you're rarely casting it. Allowing him to change spells like this would allow him to never have to worry about having useless spells for to long.

 

[TabulaRasa]

If you allow the sorcerer to swap out unwanted spells you make the class much more effective. I think that it is ok to let the sorcerer swap out spells with the same “theme” Charm person->charm monster, Invisibility ->imp. Invisibility, fireball->delayed blast fireball, and so one. But to allow the sorcerer to swap out spells with no restrictions makes the class to good. But to allow a limited amount of spellswaping make the survival chance of the low level sorcerer a lot better. I would also allow the sorcerer to upgrade there spells. I have already mentioned some of the standard spells and the upgrade spell. But I see no problems with a sorcerer that make his own upgrade spells. For example an “improved sleep” on a higher spell level, freeing up the 1st level spell known slot for a new 1st level spell.

/Tabula

 

[Celtavian]

Re

I am trying to think up a house rule that is both time intensive and difficult for a sorcerer to switch out spells. It seems dumb that this capability wasn't integrated into the class.

I will probably make switching out a spell require a substantial spellcraft DC, time and some xp to change. I definitely don't want this to become something they do during the adventure. I want to make it something that a sorcerer would rarely if ever do. I don't want to make it impossible though, because I can see a sorcerer swapping out spells. It doesn't seem like something that should be impossible.

 

[Thanee]

The answer to this is very easy.

The rules cover things you CAN do and do not specifically list things you CANNOT do. In other words, unless something is specifically allowed by the rules, you CANNOT do that.

Therefore, unless there is a rule that allows you to swap spells, you simply CANNOT do that!

House Rules are - of course - another matter.

Bye
Thanee

 

[apsuman]

Re: Re

I am trying to think up a house rule that is both time intensive and difficult for a sorcerer to switch out spells. It seems dumb that this capability wasn't integrated into the class.

I will probably make switching out a spell require a substantial spellcraft DC, time and some xp to change. I definitely don't want this to become something they do during the adventure. I want to make it something that a sorcerer would rarely if ever do. I don't want to make it impossible though, because I can see a sorcerer swapping out spells. It doesn't seem like something that should be impossible.

A suggestion...

Offer to allow free upgrade to improved spells, Charm Monster for Charm person for example. Improved dispell for dispell.

However, for other spells, only allow a switch if the caster does not cast the spell for one or perhaps two levels. That way he has to avoid castin sleep starting the day he turns level 10 until the day he gains level 12, where he can then switch it out.

Making it too easy would over power the class. But if you can go without a spell for two character levels then it might be hampering your fun.

g!

 

[0-hr]

Hey! Where in the rules does it say that Trolls are not instantly disintegrated by hearing the word "Shazam!"?

 

[KarinsDad]

The rules cover things you CAN do and do not specifically list things you CANNOT do. In other words, unless something is specifically allowed by the rules, you CANNOT do that.

Therefore, unless there is a rule that allows you to swap spells, you simply CANNOT do that!

The rules do not explicitly allow me to slide down a muddy hill.

So, are saying that I cannot do it?

There are a boatload of elements of the game that the rules do not explicitly cover. That's why we have DMs and adjudication rules.


But, getting back on topic, there are a lot of character abilities in the game that cannot be swapped back out once taken.

For example: feats, classes, skills, etc.

Why should spells be any different?

The problem with allowing a Sorcerer to swap out his spells is that it is unfair to some other player with a different character class who took a feat or a skill at low level and who is dissatisfied with it at higher level.

Part of the cocoon of the Sorcerer class concept is that you should be (but do not have to be) careful in your spell selection. Oh well, that's life.

Live with it or take a different class.

A character is just like a real person. You have certain skills and abilities that you have learned over time. You cannot suddenly magically change your experiences in life and suddenly be able to do things that you could not do previously and not do things that you could.

Letting a player get away with this type of thing is poor DMing. IMO. It encourages min-maxing (e.g. I take Sleep spell at low level when it is useful, now I take Magic Missile and metamagic it at higher level). I wouldn't even allow it as a house rule because it is unfair to the other players who do not get to swap out obsolete skills and feats.

Or suddenly, you open the can of worms that the Bard wants to switch his spells, the Rogue who has never picked a pocket in his career wants to drop that skill completely and get something else, etc.

JMO.

If your player still questions this, ask him to explain how skills and feats and classes can be swapped out. Have him explain why his character should get a special "change of abilities" benefit that the other characters do not.