Rule Question: Sorcerer Spell List


Thanee said:

Oh sure it is covered by the rules, the movement rules have everything you need, altho the wordings about sliding might be a little ambiguous.

You mean like how fast you can slide down a muddy hill? :)

Thanee said:

The rules also do not specifically allow characters to breathe, but luckily, they also do not specifically mention the need of oxygene to survive.

C'mon, use a little common sense to read the posts! ;)

C'mon, I was pulling your leg. Use a little common sense to read the posts! ;)

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First Post
I was actually thinking of a feat. or maybe a similar core class that allowed the sorcerer to change one spell on his/her list every 5 levels.

A feat would be kinda cool, a one time use feat to change sleep to Identify might not be all that bad

Change Spell [General] : Sorcerer or Bard Only

Prerequisite: None

Benefit: With this feat a character is able to forget a spell and is able to learn a new one in its place of the same level. After that spell is learned this feat becomes useless in every other way.


First Post
While extra spell will let you have more spells than before, it has some disadvantages: it only works once per taking of the feat, and it doesn't work for your highest-level spell slots.

The spell chain approach let's you upgrade the spells as much as you want to (or at least as much as there are spells in the power chain) and work with the highest-level spell slots, too. Of course, it has the disadvantage that it won't work with spells that don't belong to a chain.

But Summon Monster, for example, can be worth it: your summon Monster I though IV won't help you much later on, so you take summon monster IX, and take a lover-level spell that's still useful (while you probably won't use summon monster III at 17th level, lightning bolt will still be useful, or fly, or haste...)


First Post
Why wouldn't i allow the sor to swap old spells for new?

because right now, the sorcerer picks spells differently than a wiz would.

Sleep is a marvelous spell, rightly powerful at its time and weak and null later. Wizards take it all the time and then stop using it. Sorcerers stay away from it because after a few levels it is a wasted slots.

So wizes have sleep while sorcerers have reduce or charm person or message or expeditious ret, anything that stays useful long term.

If sor could swap, the they, just like wizes, would take sleep too and then drop it after 6th level or so for reduce or ...

I like the diversity of spells that having "no swap" for sorcerer only makes.

Allowing the sor to swap eliminates on of the major differences between sor and wiz, making them more similar, and i do not think that is a good thing.

the Jester

Put me down as another NO WAY vote!

If sorcerers can switch out spells, what makes a wizard worth playing at all? All they have on the sorcerer is the advantage of versatility. The sorcerer MUST plan ahead or else suffer the consequences.

Besides, sleep is still useful at higher levels, just not for combat. How about for sneaking into a room with a war1 guarding it? How about for robbing some merchant's house? How about for kidnapping the evil baron's 11-year-old daughter to trade for your captured buddy? She isn't going to be 10th level no matter what level you are, unless your dm has weird scaling issues in their campaign ("well, it's a town of 400 led by a 9th-level paladin mayor with his ten 6th-level fighter bodyguards, his 11th-level cleric advisor who has a group of eight 9th-level cleric lackeys and an elite squadron of 20 6th-level paladin enforcers!")

Now, with a feat or something I could see it...


First Post
Good point for sleep there, the Jester! Thought of it myself today.

Without a feat (or a wish spell), there should absolutely be no way for a wiz to change his spells, but if he wants to pay the price (1 feat for a different spell is quite much, if you ask me!)


First Post
I wouldn't let sorcerers swap out spells. One thing that I'd probably allow, which can be a little dangerous, is to make it easier for sorcerers to pick up spell chains.

I like sorcerers that adhere closely to themes. The problem with staying closely to a given theme is that you're most likely going to come out considerably less versatile that a regular sorcerer or wizard. Consider a sorcerer of red dragon descent, that takes a lot of fire spells, and has a handful of other dragon-related spells (like Fly, Polymorph, and so on). This sorcerer is giving up some powerful spells that don't fit the theme, like invisibility, some powerful enchantment spells, damage spells of other energy types, and so on. It makes for good character building but poor power play.

For a sorcerer like that, I might allow access to an entire chain of spells after they've "bought" two. For example, take Summon Monster I and II, and the rest will be freebies. No feat cost (come on, sorcerers are hurting for feats as it is!).

This option is too powerful for regular sorcerers, though. Then they'd pick spells to maximize the number of chains they can get, which can easily get out of hand.


First Post
Chun-tzu said:
For a sorcerer like that, I might allow access to an entire chain of spells after they've "bought" two. For example, take Summon Monster I and II, and the rest will be freebies. No feat cost (come on, sorcerers are hurting for feats as it is!).

I think that the whole rest is to much. One free spell after two bought is OK, but a "master conjurer" or something would get 7 free spells for two, and that would be 3rd - 9th level for a 1st and a 2nd!

I don't think that you should give them that for free (others who do extravagant things aren't rewarded, either), but it would make for a good PrC! (In S&F, there's the Lasher who makes a whip wielder more powerful, so wha no PrC that rewards a sorcerer who sticks to his theme?)


First Post
Thanee said:
The answer to this is very easy.

The rules cover things you CAN do and do not specifically list things you CANNOT do. In other words, unless something is specifically allowed by the rules, you CANNOT do that.
If I may be bold as to go OT for a moment, this reminds me of a guy I used to play Warhammer 40K with. When building his Eldar armies, he would always insist that his Exarchs could take more than one item from the Exarch Equipment List, which said that a model could be equipped with ONE piece of equipment from the list. Now, if you aren't familiar with 40K, the Exarchs are members of the aspect warriors who follow a very specialized style of fighting, a style to which the Exarch has devoted his very life, eventually causing his very flesh and soul to bond with his ancient equipment. His argument was that since it didn't specifically say that he couldn't take more than one aspect, he was free to load down this poor space elf with as much ancestral weaponry as his spindly little legs could support. Of course, this guy pretty much always lost despite his constant blatant rules breaking, so the other player and I usually just let him have his cheating way during army creation (and throughout the game), and proceeded to rip him a new one anyway. Ah, memories...

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