Rule Question: Sorcerer Spell List
Cloudgatherer
First Post
Since this is not specifically covered by the rules, the usual approach is to say a sorcerer cannot do it, by the rules. If the sorcerer could do this, it would be described under his class description, but it is not.
As far as a house rule, it's not "game breaking" to allow a sorcerer to do this. Put some reasonable limits on it (as have been suggested), or you can play strictly and not allow a sorcerer to do it. Personally, I'd probably create some house rule if a sorcerer really wanted to do this.
Later!
As far as a house rule, it's not "game breaking" to allow a sorcerer to do this. Put some reasonable limits on it (as have been suggested), or you can play strictly and not allow a sorcerer to do it. Personally, I'd probably create some house rule if a sorcerer really wanted to do this.
Later!
I am a DM who runs a sorcerer PC in my campaign.
Is this player somewhat new to 3e?
Is he somewhat new to the sorcerer idea?
I think the exact situation is more important than the rules themselves.
I wouldn't make it a house rule at all, being stuck with spells known is an important, game-balancing, limitation of the sorcerer class. Wizards are the ones that change up the spells used as they level, sorcerers are not.
However, if the player made an obvious bad decision (examples can't be given since the campaign really dictates what are good/bad decisions; however I would say that in general knowing both fireball and lightning bolt is a bad decision) or choose a spell and has never used it, I would allow him to make a change and tell him and the other players that it is a 1 time thing.
I had a player take a metamagic feat at level 1 and by level 5 he never used it. He asked if he could change it to something else, none of the other players had a problem with it, so he did.
In a situation like, "I took sleep and now that I'm level 10 it sucks." I would not do him that favor, he got his use out of that spell. My sorcerer is level 15 and I seldom cast level 0, 1, or 2 spells AND my character is very important to the group; so in my opinion having 'crappy' spells in your list is not a problem.
For the player, the biggest thing to think about while plotting the spell known for a sorcerer is balancing survivability (taking spells that kick butt now) and longevity (taking spells that scale well for 5 or more levels).
EX: Sleep and Mage Armor rate high on survivability while rating terrible on longevity.
Good luck,
Telor
Is this player somewhat new to 3e?
Is he somewhat new to the sorcerer idea?
I think the exact situation is more important than the rules themselves.
I wouldn't make it a house rule at all, being stuck with spells known is an important, game-balancing, limitation of the sorcerer class. Wizards are the ones that change up the spells used as they level, sorcerers are not.
However, if the player made an obvious bad decision (examples can't be given since the campaign really dictates what are good/bad decisions; however I would say that in general knowing both fireball and lightning bolt is a bad decision) or choose a spell and has never used it, I would allow him to make a change and tell him and the other players that it is a 1 time thing.
I had a player take a metamagic feat at level 1 and by level 5 he never used it. He asked if he could change it to something else, none of the other players had a problem with it, so he did.
In a situation like, "I took sleep and now that I'm level 10 it sucks." I would not do him that favor, he got his use out of that spell. My sorcerer is level 15 and I seldom cast level 0, 1, or 2 spells AND my character is very important to the group; so in my opinion having 'crappy' spells in your list is not a problem.
For the player, the biggest thing to think about while plotting the spell known for a sorcerer is balancing survivability (taking spells that kick butt now) and longevity (taking spells that scale well for 5 or more levels).
EX: Sleep and Mage Armor rate high on survivability while rating terrible on longevity.
Good luck,
Telor
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
Well, you could play Neverwinter Nights...
As a Matter of fact, Sorcerers are quite a bit stronger than Wizards in Neverwinter Nights in large part because the can swap their spell every level.
The perfect mix of the most useful spells at each level that you can cast at will. It doesn't get much better than this. And since all DM are spoilsport at heart, it means that I won't allow something like this in my campaign.
As a Matter of fact, Sorcerers are quite a bit stronger than Wizards in Neverwinter Nights in large part because the can swap their spell every level.
The perfect mix of the most useful spells at each level that you can cast at will. It doesn't get much better than this. And since all DM are spoilsport at heart, it means that I won't allow something like this in my campaign.
Oni
First Post
The rules do not allow you to switch spells when you level. I would certainly not allow it in a game I was running, it takes a good class and makes it better. Part of playing a sorcerer well is in the forethought with which you choose your spells. Just as a wizard must use forethought to plan for an encounter, a sorcerer has to use forethought to plan for their career, by allowing a sorcerer to switch spells they can take the best choice of spells for any given level. But most importantly it doesn't make any sense, if the party sorcerer has been casting sleep for the first three levels of his career how is it that he wakes up one day and has magically forgotten that spell, but conveniently learned a new one that is more useful at his new level?
Re
With the rest period it takes to get spells back. I didn't notice much difference between the sorcerer and the wizard except the sorcerer could cast a few more spells he or she knew and the wizard could change out spells instantly depending on what he or she needed for the battle.
I actually think the wizard was a little more powerful than the sorcerer in NWN. If my sorcerer took on an enemy that was very magic resistant that I couldn't hurt he could not prepare any differently except with scrolls. If my wizard took on enemy he couldn't hurt, he just went outside the room, changed spells, rested 30 seconds and was ready to go. Sorcerers are not really stronger than wizards in NWN in my opinion.
Just more offensively powerful, like in actual D and D.
I dont' think allowing a sorcerer or bard to switch spells through some arduous process that costs time and xp and requires a relatively high spellcraft roll is gamebreaking.
The disadvantage of playing a sorcerer would hardly be offset by being able to change out a few spells over the course of the life of the sorcerer. The only way this would be so is if the process of changing was so easy that a sorcerer could change spells as easily as wizard.
My campaign right now allows sorcerers the same number of bonus feats as a wizard and also gives the bonus feat eschew materials at first level. I also allow sorcerers bonus spells known for a high intelligence. I also allow bards with high intelligence to have bonus spells known.
The reason I did this is because no one wanted to play a sorcerer or a bard prior to the addition of these rules. The classes were too limiting and lacking for most players. Spell variety and little bonus abilities are what make the game fun for many players. Sorcerers seriously lack level based class abilities.
This has had no impact on my game. Wizards are still played more often than sorcerers. Why? With the addition of the Tome and Blood and Magic of Faerun, very few people want to give up the spell variety of a wizard to be able to cast 2 more spells per level. The benefit just doesn't outweigh the cost. This is probably the main reason I spiced up the sorcerer.
Currently, only two people have played bards. One is playing one because they are on the bladesinger path, and thought the bard fit well as a background class for a bladesinger. The other bard wanted to be a harper, so is playing a bard/ranger to be the archetypal harper. My house rules have in no way upset the fun or balance of the sorcerer or bard class.
Unless a rule imbalances the class or makes it much more powerful than their base class counterparts, I dont' see a problem with it. As far as being unfair to the other players because they can't change out their skills and feats, I don't see it.
I haven't seen one feat that isn't as good or necessary at the level you pick it up when compared to using the same feat at high level. If you can tell me one level dependent feat, that would be great.
As far as skills go, if there were some kind of skill degradation system as their is in a few other games, then I might see a person changing skills. I usually require my players to use at least half their skill points to boost skills they have used during an adventure.
Also, I know few folks who would have any motivation to adjust their skills at a later time. If some player really wanted to do this, then I would probably allow them to do so. I like players to enjoy the game. My main requirement is always to have some kind of roleplaying reason why a change is occurring.
I can think of plenty of reasons a sorcerer or bard might change spells out. Both classes are adventurous. A sorcerer might find some new spell he likes better, and decide that he wishes to practice that spell exclusively over some other spell he knows. A bard might feel the same way about a new spell, which is basically a new song to a bard. Why shouldn't either class be able to change a spell if they find one the like better? Is there a roleplaying reason why they should not or simply a game balance reason? I will always go with the roleplaying reason for something before I stick to a game balance or rule reason.
I simply can't think of one roleplaying reason why a sorcerer or bard would not be able to swap out spells. I see no reason to disallow it. I just think it should be a very difficult and time consumiing process.
With the rest period it takes to get spells back. I didn't notice much difference between the sorcerer and the wizard except the sorcerer could cast a few more spells he or she knew and the wizard could change out spells instantly depending on what he or she needed for the battle.
I actually think the wizard was a little more powerful than the sorcerer in NWN. If my sorcerer took on an enemy that was very magic resistant that I couldn't hurt he could not prepare any differently except with scrolls. If my wizard took on enemy he couldn't hurt, he just went outside the room, changed spells, rested 30 seconds and was ready to go. Sorcerers are not really stronger than wizards in NWN in my opinion.
Just more offensively powerful, like in actual D and D.
I dont' think allowing a sorcerer or bard to switch spells through some arduous process that costs time and xp and requires a relatively high spellcraft roll is gamebreaking.
The disadvantage of playing a sorcerer would hardly be offset by being able to change out a few spells over the course of the life of the sorcerer. The only way this would be so is if the process of changing was so easy that a sorcerer could change spells as easily as wizard.
My campaign right now allows sorcerers the same number of bonus feats as a wizard and also gives the bonus feat eschew materials at first level. I also allow sorcerers bonus spells known for a high intelligence. I also allow bards with high intelligence to have bonus spells known.
The reason I did this is because no one wanted to play a sorcerer or a bard prior to the addition of these rules. The classes were too limiting and lacking for most players. Spell variety and little bonus abilities are what make the game fun for many players. Sorcerers seriously lack level based class abilities.
This has had no impact on my game. Wizards are still played more often than sorcerers. Why? With the addition of the Tome and Blood and Magic of Faerun, very few people want to give up the spell variety of a wizard to be able to cast 2 more spells per level. The benefit just doesn't outweigh the cost. This is probably the main reason I spiced up the sorcerer.
Currently, only two people have played bards. One is playing one because they are on the bladesinger path, and thought the bard fit well as a background class for a bladesinger. The other bard wanted to be a harper, so is playing a bard/ranger to be the archetypal harper. My house rules have in no way upset the fun or balance of the sorcerer or bard class.
Unless a rule imbalances the class or makes it much more powerful than their base class counterparts, I dont' see a problem with it. As far as being unfair to the other players because they can't change out their skills and feats, I don't see it.
I haven't seen one feat that isn't as good or necessary at the level you pick it up when compared to using the same feat at high level. If you can tell me one level dependent feat, that would be great.
As far as skills go, if there were some kind of skill degradation system as their is in a few other games, then I might see a person changing skills. I usually require my players to use at least half their skill points to boost skills they have used during an adventure.
Also, I know few folks who would have any motivation to adjust their skills at a later time. If some player really wanted to do this, then I would probably allow them to do so. I like players to enjoy the game. My main requirement is always to have some kind of roleplaying reason why a change is occurring.
I can think of plenty of reasons a sorcerer or bard might change spells out. Both classes are adventurous. A sorcerer might find some new spell he likes better, and decide that he wishes to practice that spell exclusively over some other spell he knows. A bard might feel the same way about a new spell, which is basically a new song to a bard. Why shouldn't either class be able to change a spell if they find one the like better? Is there a roleplaying reason why they should not or simply a game balance reason? I will always go with the roleplaying reason for something before I stick to a game balance or rule reason.
I simply can't think of one roleplaying reason why a sorcerer or bard would not be able to swap out spells. I see no reason to disallow it. I just think it should be a very difficult and time consumiing process.
Thanee
First Post
KarinsDad said:
Oh sure it is covered by the rules, the movement rules have everything you need, altho the wordings about sliding might be a little ambiguous.
The rules also do not specifically allow characters to breathe, but luckily, they also do not specifically mention the need of oxygene to survive.
C'mon, use a little common sense to read the posts!
Bye
Thanee
Kae'Yoss
First Post
I certainly would allow that just so. That just makes no sense: you forget a spell and learn a new one.
But I see two ways to do the trick:
1. With a wish spell (The Simbul from the FRCS actually does that from time to time.)
2. Invent some feats. Wizards has created similar feats for psions to "upgrade" powers along "power chains".
For the power chains please visit wizards.com in their special psion section ("Expand you mind" I think).
You could make up similar spell chains for the sorcerer.
But I see two ways to do the trick:
1. With a wish spell (The Simbul from the FRCS actually does that from time to time.)
2. Invent some feats. Wizards has created similar feats for psions to "upgrade" powers along "power chains".
For the power chains please visit wizards.com in their special psion section ("Expand you mind" I think).
You could make up similar spell chains for the sorcerer.
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