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Rule Question: Sorcerer Spell List

laiyna

First Post
hi,

There are questions made if it is posible to switch spells with a sorcerer when he/she levels. So for Example at level 4 to 5 to Sorcerer gets a new 2e level spell, but the Player wants to swap his other 2e level spell also. So he got 2 new 2e level spells.

As far as I know this is not posible, but when the argument broke out the simpel answer of the player was, where does it stand I can not do this? There only stands that I only get new spells when I raise in level.

I guess you all know now what I'm looking for. I could not find it, where does it stand that a sorcerer can not change his spells for spells he already has choosen.

thanks,

Laiyna
 

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Teydyn

First Post
AFAIK there is no rule that you can CHANGE a spell you have...

on the other side would it be that bad to allow a sorcerer to change spells? 1 per level gained? I dont think so, but that would be a house rule :)
 

We house-ruled that a Sorcerer could change a spell upon leveling with the following restrictions:

A) it had to be a spell slot two levels below his current max, ie if he could cast third level spells, he could swap out a 1st level slot.

B) Since spellcasting is a natural ability for Sorcerers instead of a learned skill, the new spell had to be from the same school as the old one (in essence, the Sorcerer figured out how to alter an existing ability rather than learn a completely new one).

C) He had to make a spellcraft check at DC 15+Spell level of the new spell to be learned
 

Crothian

First Post
WEll, you have to remmeber that some spells loose effectiveness as one gains levels. Sure, that sleep spell is great at first level, but at 10th you're rarely casting it. Allowing him to change spells like this would allow him to never have to worry about having useless spells for to long.
 

TabulaRasa

First Post
If you allow the sorcerer to swap out unwanted spells you make the class much more effective. I think that it is ok to let the sorcerer swap out spells with the same “theme” Charm person->charm monster, Invisibility ->imp. Invisibility, fireball->delayed blast fireball, and so one. But to allow the sorcerer to swap out spells with no restrictions makes the class to good. But to allow a limited amount of spellswaping make the survival chance of the low level sorcerer a lot better. I would also allow the sorcerer to upgrade there spells. I have already mentioned some of the standard spells and the upgrade spell. But I see no problems with a sorcerer that make his own upgrade spells. For example an “improved sleep” on a higher spell level, freeing up the 1st level spell known slot for a new 1st level spell.

/Tabula
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Re

I am trying to think up a house rule that is both time intensive and difficult for a sorcerer to switch out spells. It seems dumb that this capability wasn't integrated into the class.

I will probably make switching out a spell require a substantial spellcraft DC, time and some xp to change. I definitely don't want this to become something they do during the adventure. I want to make it something that a sorcerer would rarely if ever do. I don't want to make it impossible though, because I can see a sorcerer swapping out spells. It doesn't seem like something that should be impossible.
 

Thanee

First Post
The answer to this is very easy.

The rules cover things you CAN do and do not specifically list things you CANNOT do. In other words, unless something is specifically allowed by the rules, you CANNOT do that.

Therefore, unless there is a rule that allows you to swap spells, you simply CANNOT do that!

House Rules are - of course - another matter.

Bye
Thanee
 

apsuman

First Post
Re: Re

Celtavian said:
I am trying to think up a house rule that is both time intensive and difficult for a sorcerer to switch out spells. It seems dumb that this capability wasn't integrated into the class.

I will probably make switching out a spell require a substantial spellcraft DC, time and some xp to change. I definitely don't want this to become something they do during the adventure. I want to make it something that a sorcerer would rarely if ever do. I don't want to make it impossible though, because I can see a sorcerer swapping out spells. It doesn't seem like something that should be impossible.

A suggestion...

Offer to allow free upgrade to improved spells, Charm Monster for Charm person for example. Improved dispell for dispell.

However, for other spells, only allow a switch if the caster does not cast the spell for one or perhaps two levels. That way he has to avoid castin sleep starting the day he turns level 10 until the day he gains level 12, where he can then switch it out.

Making it too easy would over power the class. But if you can go without a spell for two character levels then it might be hampering your fun.

g!
 

Ki Ryn

First Post
Hey! Where in the rules does it say that Trolls are not instantly disintegrated by hearing the word "Shazam!"?
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Thanee said:

The rules cover things you CAN do and do not specifically list things you CANNOT do. In other words, unless something is specifically allowed by the rules, you CANNOT do that.

Therefore, unless there is a rule that allows you to swap spells, you simply CANNOT do that!

The rules do not explicitly allow me to slide down a muddy hill.

So, are saying that I cannot do it?

There are a boatload of elements of the game that the rules do not explicitly cover. That's why we have DMs and adjudication rules.


But, getting back on topic, there are a lot of character abilities in the game that cannot be swapped back out once taken.

For example: feats, classes, skills, etc.

Why should spells be any different?

The problem with allowing a Sorcerer to swap out his spells is that it is unfair to some other player with a different character class who took a feat or a skill at low level and who is dissatisfied with it at higher level.

Part of the cocoon of the Sorcerer class concept is that you should be (but do not have to be) careful in your spell selection. Oh well, that's life.

Live with it or take a different class.

A character is just like a real person. You have certain skills and abilities that you have learned over time. You cannot suddenly magically change your experiences in life and suddenly be able to do things that you could not do previously and not do things that you could.

Letting a player get away with this type of thing is poor DMing. IMO. It encourages min-maxing (e.g. I take Sleep spell at low level when it is useful, now I take Magic Missile and metamagic it at higher level). I wouldn't even allow it as a house rule because it is unfair to the other players who do not get to swap out obsolete skills and feats.

Or suddenly, you open the can of worms that the Bard wants to switch his spells, the Rogue who has never picked a pocket in his career wants to drop that skill completely and get something else, etc.

JMO.

If your player still questions this, ask him to explain how skills and feats and classes can be swapped out. Have him explain why his character should get a special "change of abilities" benefit that the other characters do not.
 


Cloudgatherer

First Post
Since this is not specifically covered by the rules, the usual approach is to say a sorcerer cannot do it, by the rules. If the sorcerer could do this, it would be described under his class description, but it is not.

As far as a house rule, it's not "game breaking" to allow a sorcerer to do this. Put some reasonable limits on it (as have been suggested), or you can play strictly and not allow a sorcerer to do it. Personally, I'd probably create some house rule if a sorcerer really wanted to do this.

Later!
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Cloudgatherer said:

As far as a house rule, it's not "game breaking" to allow a sorcerer to do this. Put some reasonable limits on it (as have been suggested), or you can play strictly and not allow a sorcerer to do it. Personally, I'd probably create some house rule if a sorcerer really wanted to do this.

Not game breaking, just unfair to others.

Would you allow the Rogue at level 10 to suddenly drop his Pick Pocket skill from 12 to 3 and put 9 points into some other skill?
 

Telor

First Post
I am a DM who runs a sorcerer PC in my campaign.

Is this player somewhat new to 3e?
Is he somewhat new to the sorcerer idea?
I think the exact situation is more important than the rules themselves.

I wouldn't make it a house rule at all, being stuck with spells known is an important, game-balancing, limitation of the sorcerer class. Wizards are the ones that change up the spells used as they level, sorcerers are not.

However, if the player made an obvious bad decision (examples can't be given since the campaign really dictates what are good/bad decisions; however I would say that in general knowing both fireball and lightning bolt is a bad decision) or choose a spell and has never used it, I would allow him to make a change and tell him and the other players that it is a 1 time thing.

I had a player take a metamagic feat at level 1 and by level 5 he never used it. He asked if he could change it to something else, none of the other players had a problem with it, so he did.

In a situation like, "I took sleep and now that I'm level 10 it sucks." I would not do him that favor, he got his use out of that spell. My sorcerer is level 15 and I seldom cast level 0, 1, or 2 spells AND my character is very important to the group; so in my opinion having 'crappy' spells in your list is not a problem.

For the player, the biggest thing to think about while plotting the spell known for a sorcerer is balancing survivability (taking spells that kick butt now) and longevity (taking spells that scale well for 5 or more levels).

EX: Sleep and Mage Armor rate high on survivability while rating terrible on longevity.

Good luck,
Telor
 

Crothian

First Post
KarinsDad said:


Not game breaking, just unfair to others.

Would you allow the Rogue at level 10 to suddenly drop his Pick Pocket skill from 12 to 3 and put 9 points into some other skill?

Then ask the other players if they would mind the Sorcerer doing this. Personally, I would have no problem if the sorcerer or bard had this ability and I highly doubt the rest of the group would.
 

Mal Malenkirk

First Post
Well, you could play Neverwinter Nights...

As a Matter of fact, Sorcerers are quite a bit stronger than Wizards in Neverwinter Nights in large part because the can swap their spell every level.

The perfect mix of the most useful spells at each level that you can cast at will. It doesn't get much better than this. And since all DM are spoilsport at heart, it means that I won't allow something like this in my campaign. ;)
 

Oni

First Post
The rules do not allow you to switch spells when you level. I would certainly not allow it in a game I was running, it takes a good class and makes it better. Part of playing a sorcerer well is in the forethought with which you choose your spells. Just as a wizard must use forethought to plan for an encounter, a sorcerer has to use forethought to plan for their career, by allowing a sorcerer to switch spells they can take the best choice of spells for any given level. But most importantly it doesn't make any sense, if the party sorcerer has been casting sleep for the first three levels of his career how is it that he wakes up one day and has magically forgotten that spell, but conveniently learned a new one that is more useful at his new level?
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Re

Well, you could play Neverwinter Nights...

As a Matter of fact, Sorcerers are quite a bit stronger than Wizards in Neverwinter Nights in large part because the can swap their spell every level.

With the rest period it takes to get spells back. I didn't notice much difference between the sorcerer and the wizard except the sorcerer could cast a few more spells he or she knew and the wizard could change out spells instantly depending on what he or she needed for the battle.

I actually think the wizard was a little more powerful than the sorcerer in NWN. If my sorcerer took on an enemy that was very magic resistant that I couldn't hurt he could not prepare any differently except with scrolls. If my wizard took on enemy he couldn't hurt, he just went outside the room, changed spells, rested 30 seconds and was ready to go. Sorcerers are not really stronger than wizards in NWN in my opinion.

Just more offensively powerful, like in actual D and D.




Not game breaking, just unfair to others.

I dont' think allowing a sorcerer or bard to switch spells through some arduous process that costs time and xp and requires a relatively high spellcraft roll is gamebreaking.

The disadvantage of playing a sorcerer would hardly be offset by being able to change out a few spells over the course of the life of the sorcerer. The only way this would be so is if the process of changing was so easy that a sorcerer could change spells as easily as wizard.

My campaign right now allows sorcerers the same number of bonus feats as a wizard and also gives the bonus feat eschew materials at first level. I also allow sorcerers bonus spells known for a high intelligence. I also allow bards with high intelligence to have bonus spells known.

The reason I did this is because no one wanted to play a sorcerer or a bard prior to the addition of these rules. The classes were too limiting and lacking for most players. Spell variety and little bonus abilities are what make the game fun for many players. Sorcerers seriously lack level based class abilities.

This has had no impact on my game. Wizards are still played more often than sorcerers. Why? With the addition of the Tome and Blood and Magic of Faerun, very few people want to give up the spell variety of a wizard to be able to cast 2 more spells per level. The benefit just doesn't outweigh the cost. This is probably the main reason I spiced up the sorcerer.

Currently, only two people have played bards. One is playing one because they are on the bladesinger path, and thought the bard fit well as a background class for a bladesinger. The other bard wanted to be a harper, so is playing a bard/ranger to be the archetypal harper. My house rules have in no way upset the fun or balance of the sorcerer or bard class.

Unless a rule imbalances the class or makes it much more powerful than their base class counterparts, I dont' see a problem with it. As far as being unfair to the other players because they can't change out their skills and feats, I don't see it.

I haven't seen one feat that isn't as good or necessary at the level you pick it up when compared to using the same feat at high level. If you can tell me one level dependent feat, that would be great.

As far as skills go, if there were some kind of skill degradation system as their is in a few other games, then I might see a person changing skills. I usually require my players to use at least half their skill points to boost skills they have used during an adventure.

Also, I know few folks who would have any motivation to adjust their skills at a later time. If some player really wanted to do this, then I would probably allow them to do so. I like players to enjoy the game. My main requirement is always to have some kind of roleplaying reason why a change is occurring.

I can think of plenty of reasons a sorcerer or bard might change spells out. Both classes are adventurous. A sorcerer might find some new spell he likes better, and decide that he wishes to practice that spell exclusively over some other spell he knows. A bard might feel the same way about a new spell, which is basically a new song to a bard. Why shouldn't either class be able to change a spell if they find one the like better? Is there a roleplaying reason why they should not or simply a game balance reason? I will always go with the roleplaying reason for something before I stick to a game balance or rule reason.

I simply can't think of one roleplaying reason why a sorcerer or bard would not be able to swap out spells. I see no reason to disallow it. I just think it should be a very difficult and time consumiing process.
 

Thanee

First Post
KarinsDad said:
The rules do not explicitly allow me to slide down a muddy hill.

So, are saying that I cannot do it?

Oh sure it is covered by the rules, the movement rules have everything you need, altho the wordings about sliding might be a little ambiguous.

The rules also do not specifically allow characters to breathe, but luckily, they also do not specifically mention the need of oxygene to survive.

C'mon, use a little common sense to read the posts! ;)

Bye
Thanee
 

Kae'Yoss

First Post
I certainly would allow that just so. That just makes no sense: you forget a spell and learn a new one.
But I see two ways to do the trick:
1. With a wish spell (The Simbul from the FRCS actually does that from time to time.)

2. Invent some feats. Wizards has created similar feats for psions to "upgrade" powers along "power chains".

Upgrade Power [Psionic]
You can upgrade your powers.
Prerequisite: Any other psionic or metapsionic feat.
Benefit: Choose one power chain from which you have learned a psionic power. When you learn a higher-level power on that chain, you can "forget" one or more lower-level powers you know on the chain, substituting new, different powers of the same lower level instead. If you "forget" a lower-level power and that is the only power you know from your discipline at that level, you must substitute another power from your discipline at that level. You can choose not to "forget" a lower-level power you know, even if learning a higher-level power on a chain for which you have chosen this feat. Recognized power chains are described in the Recognized Power Chains sidebar -- other power chains may be possible (or the recognized power chains may be altered), at your DM's discretion.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, it applies to a new power chain

Chain Link [Psionic]
You can upgrade all recognized power chains in your primary discipline.
Prerequisite: Manifester level 3rd+.
Benefit: All power chains in your primary discipline have the Upgrade Power feat. Whenever you learn a power from your primary discipline, you can "forget" a power from any of the chains in that discipline.

For the power chains please visit wizards.com in their special psion section ("Expand you mind" I think).
You could make up similar spell chains for the sorcerer.
 

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