D&D 4E Running player commentary on PCat's 4E Campaign - Heroic tier (finished)

[Piratecat]

(if you have the creativity and exceptional feel for encounters that Piratecat has...)

No, seriously. the trick is not over-thinking it. The awful thing for skill challenges is to get too fiddly - "I'll specify ahead of time which skills can be used, which skills can't, and which ones have an altered DC." That just sucks all the joy out of the prep time. If you do it on the fly, here's my guideline:

Set a starting DC based on how hard the challenge should be (medium is usually appropriate). A PC suggests a skill and describes how they'll use it to succeed. If you say "That makes total sense!", it's relatively easy, knock 2 off the DC target; if you say "that's reasonable," it's the normal DC target; if you raise an eyebrow and slowly say "yeahhhhhh.." in that tone of voice, add 2 or more to the DC or (if it's really inappropriate) disallow it. This lets the players be creative while still rewarding the more reasonable skills.

Feel free to play around with timing, by the way. For example, this skill challenge wasn't constrained to rounds. Multiple rounds passed as they ran, because I wanted to move them from place to place to keep the fight interesting.

 

[Storminator]

In my game, I use skill challenges in every session. I'll frame the whole session around a SC. Frex, my PCs found a map to an underdark Khyber shard mine. Find the mine is the challenge, and it covers all the exploration portions that I used to do with intricate maps of dungeons. Failures result in being lost, losing surges, or major combats with little/no treasure.

For prep I come up with a list of possible skills I think are appropriate. I let the players choose any skill/power/throwing gold/etc they can convince me works, but if I think they're stumped I give them my default list.

Like PC, I tend to spend a few minutes actually writing things down. I spend a lot of time in my car thinking of challenges, but precious little actually fiddling with the rules.

PS

 

[Siuis]

No, seriously. the trick is not over-thinking it. The awful thing for skill challenges is to get too fiddly - "I'll specify ahead of time which skills can be used, which skills can't, and which ones have an altered DC." That just sucks all the joy out of the prep time.

QFT

I have only ever seen 3 successful skill challenges- two of them were in 3.5 too.
-party patron, a 10th level ranger (we were... 2nd I think) saved us from gnolls but was badly poisoned and diseased. Tomas, the necromancer-physician identified the blood poisoning and we spent about half an hour real time performing surgery to remove the dying/infected tissue, keep him alive, purify utensils and een try to graft gnoll flesh to replace the removed vital parts. Me and the DM had just enough anat/physio knowledge to really get into it.
- small ship in a storm; bailing water, rescuing unconscious party members, steering away/into rogue waves to avoid capsizing, tying, defying and restraining loose, blown cables. We almost died when our bard suggested the flyer go into he clouds to discourage the thunder devil from pelting us*
-[4e]party is fighting elemental scorpions in a room fillig with lava. The gorge fills and begins invading the platform! Statuary was chucked into magma to use as platforms, jumping, balancing, climbing, holding off enemies and enduring the heat, all amid combat.

The shared elements took me a minute, but I figured it out. Good skill challenges make you think "what would I do?" not "what skill should I use?". Many skill challenges that started with "use your skills, GO!" have failed.

What I'm swiping from you, PC, is the context You give. If I can establish context, it's not a skill challenge, it's role-play. And that's really hard to do. And easy to over-do...


*it's D&D. Convection? Evaporation? Low pressure systems? No! We're obviously being assaulted by a thunderdemon! Go kill it.

 

[Piratecat]

Good skill challenges make you think "what would I do?" not "what skill should I use?". Many skill challenges that started with "use your skills, GO!" have failed.

You know, that's a really elegant way to put it. I like to say "think about what you'd do, then we'll figure out a way to represent that with your skills." There's some fun, tactical metagaming in there - do I suck too much to succeed without help? - but having people describe their action along with the skill seems to work much better.

 

[Dungeoneer]

You know, that's a really elegant way to put it. I like to say "think about what you'd do, then we'll figure out a way to represent that with your skills." There's some fun, tactical metagaming in there - do I suck too much to succeed without help? - but having people describe their action along with the skill seems to work much better.

I wish that Wizards presented SCs this way in most of their books. Instead it's, "Here's the skills the players can use..."

 

[Piratecat]

I apologize to Sagiro; when I wrote that up, I inadvertently preempted his own discussion of the game! Stupid enthusiasm, be less enthusiastic. Sagiro, I welcome any insight of how it went from your point of view.

One other thing is worth discussing, and that's my use of the new stronghold builder rules. I'm probably best off saving the detailed discussion until after next game, though. Short version: The PCs are considering reclaiming Inquisitor Zacris' (aka Strontium's) old wizard's tower, 175' tall, protected by a warforged titan and surrounded by some sort of killing field. Strontium was at least 25th level before he sank into the swamp for hundreds of years ("Worst.. epic destiny.. EVER."). The design challenges are intriguing.

 

[Rel]

In a perfect world I think that the concept of "What do you do?" rather than "What skill do you want to use?" is a better approach to immersion in Skill Challenges. The problem is that what makes sense to the player may involve the use of a skill that their character sucks at, resulting in either failure or them balking at the attempt once they realize the numbers involved.

There was a particular phrasing that I stole from a fellow ENWorlder (I wish I could remember who) that made the concept click for my players:

"Skill Challenges are where you trick me into letting you use your best skills to overcome the problem at hand by describing creative ways you can bring them to bear."

Once they grasped that basic concept then Skill Challenges seemed to flow really well and became a great part of the game.

 

[Markn]

Hey PC,

What would have happened if the players failed the SC? Just curious.

 

[Fajitas]

In a perfect world I think that the concept of "What do you do?" rather than "What skill do you want to use?" is a better approach to immersion in Skill Challenges. The problem is that what makes sense to the player may involve the use of a skill that their character sucks at, resulting in either failure or them balking at the attempt once they realize the numbers involved.

One of the techniques I use is to award Bennies (chits that can be saved and cashed in for an extra +2 to future rolls) for the use of an untrained skill in a skill challenge--whether it's successful or not. It has definitely helped encourage people to use appropriate skills even when it's not their best skills.

 

[Piratecat]

One of the techniques I use is to award Bennies (chits that can be saved and cashed in for an extra +2 to future rolls) for the use of an untrained skill in a skill challenge--whether it's successful or not. It has definitely helped encourage people to use appropriate skills even when it's not their best skills.

I like this idea a lot. Do they stack?