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D&D 4E Running player commentary on PCat's 4E Campaign - Heroic tier (finished)
- Thread starter Sagiro
- Start date
Sagiro
Rodent of Uncertain Parentage
We played again tonight – run #20 of the campaign, I think. (Piratecat, can you confirm?) I'll skip the plot-related stuff, and comment on everything else. Other players should feel free to chime in with additions and corrections, as always.
This was our first game at 5th level, which meant we all had new shiny new Level 5 dailies:
- Logan and Cobalt (rogues) both selected Downward Spiral from Martial Power
- Toiva (paladin) selected Unyielding Faith from Divine Power
- Bramble (shaman) selected Earthrage Spirit
- Strontium (wizard) got to pick 3 dailies for his spellbook. One was Web, and the other two were from Arcane Power, which I don't own. One of them, used tonight, does psychic damage and grants combat advantage to allies. I don't recall anything about the 3rd.
- Doc Caldwell (ranger) selected Adaptive Assault from Martial Power
There was also a fair amount of swapping choices out from previous levels. Logan swapped out Adaptive Flanker, in favor of Fast Hands – the new Skill Utility that lets you draw, sheathe, pick-up item, etc. as a free action 1/round. He also swapped out a feat (forget which one) in order to take Slaying Action. Bramble swapped out Blessing of the Seven Winds to take Spirit of the Healing Flood. Caldwell swapped out something as well (his Utility? Not sure) to get the ability to allow a dying ally to spend a Healing Surge.
With some in-game downtime at the start of the run, we bought some new Alchemical recipes (Blastpatch and Bloodstinger Poison), and made some Healing Potions using the Brew Potion ritual (a perk of being 5th level!).
And, of course, there was a good battle in this game. A Kenku hit squad had been sent to take out Bramble, and they lured us into an ambush on the streets of Floodford. The enemies were:
Skrax, a Kenku Assassin (Level 5 Elite Skirmisher)
Grink, a Kenku Wing Mage (Level 5 Artillery)
Punnuk, a Kenku Ringleader (Level 4 Solider – Leader)
Fekkel and Kelg, Kenku Sneaks (Level 4 Lurkers)
In theory, that's somewhere between a Level -1 and a Level +0 encounter, but it was pretty hairy at the beginning, as all the attackers targeted Bramble exclusively. Also, the Kenku got a surprise round, and rolled extremely well on their initiative rolls. As it happens, Bramble herself (with her mighty Perception Skill) was the only one of us not surprised – a good thing, since had all the enemies gotten to go twice before her, she certainly would have died. As it was, they had done 33 our of her 50 HP before she got to go, and even with some self-healing on her turn, they had her down to the single-digits before anyone else in the party could act!
Once we recovered a bit, the battle went pretty well. It was “healer, heal thyself” for Bramble, who managed to keep herself up while the rest of us did the damage. Some other tactical notes:
- Even knowing that it's best to gang up on one enemy at a time, it turns out to be extremely tricky in practice. It seems like every battle with multiple foes, circumstances of terrain and initial placement of actors make ganging up a logistically unattractive choice.
- Strontium's Fire Shroud was particularly effective – there were lots of burning birds taking ongoing fire 5
- The Kenku Assassin had a brutal power: Feather Burst. This is a Close Burst 2, enemies-only power that auto-blinds for a turn. No attack roll necessary! This was particularly unpopular with the party rogues, as blind = no combat advantage.
- Logan got three of the five enemies with a Blinding Barrage – there was a round or two in there where it seemed pretty much every combatant was blind.
- Bramble's new Earthrage Spirit power hit 3 of the 5 enemies, but its use was late enough in the combat that the auto-knock-prone effect didn't end up mattering – subsequent hits to the victims were all death-blows! Note for future battles: use that one in the earliest possible round.
- Logan made good use of his new feat (Slaying Action), scoring a round of double-sneak attack damage which piled 40+ points of damage onto Skrax.
- On the other hand, Cobalt was pretty much a non-factor in this one. Of his 4 or 5 attack rolls, 2 of them were “1's”, including an attack on which he was getting a +18 to hit. (Action Point + Action Surge Feat + Combat Advantage). Argh!
- This was the first battle of the campaign in which both Doc Caldwell and Strontium hit with a Daily. In Stron's case, he hit with the power that grants all of his allies Combat Advantage against the target, and this was key in preventing the Assassin (the last bird standing) from escaping.
- This was the most rules-intensive and condition-heavy battle of the campaign so far. We spent a fair amount of time in the early rounds looking up rules on Concealment, Climbing, Forced Movement and some other stuff. There are still a couple of rules questions we're not sure of:
- If a creature is Slowed, does the speed reduction affect the following power: “Shift 4 squares and make an attack during that move”?
- Can you Slide an enemy through squares occupied by that enemy's allies? What about a power that lets you Slide multiple enemies simultaneously – can you Slide them past each other?
- As for the Conditions, I kept track of them on a white-board as we went. It would have been a nightmare without it, but with a constant record of who was affected by what, things went pretty smoothly. There was a LOT to keep track of in this one – blindness, slowed-ness, characters granting CA to specific other characters, ongoing damage, dazing effects, regeneration – the works.
I made sure to change the enemy status to DEAD as we knocked them off.
This was our first game at 5th level, which meant we all had new shiny new Level 5 dailies:
- Logan and Cobalt (rogues) both selected Downward Spiral from Martial Power
- Toiva (paladin) selected Unyielding Faith from Divine Power
- Bramble (shaman) selected Earthrage Spirit
- Strontium (wizard) got to pick 3 dailies for his spellbook. One was Web, and the other two were from Arcane Power, which I don't own. One of them, used tonight, does psychic damage and grants combat advantage to allies. I don't recall anything about the 3rd.
- Doc Caldwell (ranger) selected Adaptive Assault from Martial Power
There was also a fair amount of swapping choices out from previous levels. Logan swapped out Adaptive Flanker, in favor of Fast Hands – the new Skill Utility that lets you draw, sheathe, pick-up item, etc. as a free action 1/round. He also swapped out a feat (forget which one) in order to take Slaying Action. Bramble swapped out Blessing of the Seven Winds to take Spirit of the Healing Flood. Caldwell swapped out something as well (his Utility? Not sure) to get the ability to allow a dying ally to spend a Healing Surge.
With some in-game downtime at the start of the run, we bought some new Alchemical recipes (Blastpatch and Bloodstinger Poison), and made some Healing Potions using the Brew Potion ritual (a perk of being 5th level!).
And, of course, there was a good battle in this game. A Kenku hit squad had been sent to take out Bramble, and they lured us into an ambush on the streets of Floodford. The enemies were:
Skrax, a Kenku Assassin (Level 5 Elite Skirmisher)
Grink, a Kenku Wing Mage (Level 5 Artillery)
Punnuk, a Kenku Ringleader (Level 4 Solider – Leader)
Fekkel and Kelg, Kenku Sneaks (Level 4 Lurkers)
In theory, that's somewhere between a Level -1 and a Level +0 encounter, but it was pretty hairy at the beginning, as all the attackers targeted Bramble exclusively. Also, the Kenku got a surprise round, and rolled extremely well on their initiative rolls. As it happens, Bramble herself (with her mighty Perception Skill) was the only one of us not surprised – a good thing, since had all the enemies gotten to go twice before her, she certainly would have died. As it was, they had done 33 our of her 50 HP before she got to go, and even with some self-healing on her turn, they had her down to the single-digits before anyone else in the party could act!
Once we recovered a bit, the battle went pretty well. It was “healer, heal thyself” for Bramble, who managed to keep herself up while the rest of us did the damage. Some other tactical notes:
- Even knowing that it's best to gang up on one enemy at a time, it turns out to be extremely tricky in practice. It seems like every battle with multiple foes, circumstances of terrain and initial placement of actors make ganging up a logistically unattractive choice.
- Strontium's Fire Shroud was particularly effective – there were lots of burning birds taking ongoing fire 5
- The Kenku Assassin had a brutal power: Feather Burst. This is a Close Burst 2, enemies-only power that auto-blinds for a turn. No attack roll necessary! This was particularly unpopular with the party rogues, as blind = no combat advantage.
- Logan got three of the five enemies with a Blinding Barrage – there was a round or two in there where it seemed pretty much every combatant was blind.
- Bramble's new Earthrage Spirit power hit 3 of the 5 enemies, but its use was late enough in the combat that the auto-knock-prone effect didn't end up mattering – subsequent hits to the victims were all death-blows! Note for future battles: use that one in the earliest possible round.
- Logan made good use of his new feat (Slaying Action), scoring a round of double-sneak attack damage which piled 40+ points of damage onto Skrax.
- On the other hand, Cobalt was pretty much a non-factor in this one. Of his 4 or 5 attack rolls, 2 of them were “1's”, including an attack on which he was getting a +18 to hit. (Action Point + Action Surge Feat + Combat Advantage). Argh!
- This was the first battle of the campaign in which both Doc Caldwell and Strontium hit with a Daily. In Stron's case, he hit with the power that grants all of his allies Combat Advantage against the target, and this was key in preventing the Assassin (the last bird standing) from escaping.
- This was the most rules-intensive and condition-heavy battle of the campaign so far. We spent a fair amount of time in the early rounds looking up rules on Concealment, Climbing, Forced Movement and some other stuff. There are still a couple of rules questions we're not sure of:
- If a creature is Slowed, does the speed reduction affect the following power: “Shift 4 squares and make an attack during that move”?
- Can you Slide an enemy through squares occupied by that enemy's allies? What about a power that lets you Slide multiple enemies simultaneously – can you Slide them past each other?
- As for the Conditions, I kept track of them on a white-board as we went. It would have been a nightmare without it, but with a constant record of who was affected by what, things went pretty smoothly. There was a LOT to keep track of in this one – blindness, slowed-ness, characters granting CA to specific other characters, ongoing damage, dazing effects, regeneration – the works.
I made sure to change the enemy status to DEAD as we knocked them off.
That's also been my observations. You know that statistically that it makes sense to gang up, but for some reason it always seems difficult to achieve.
I guess that there is always the arms-race aspect to it as well in that if the players consistently do it, then the DM might just do so as well! But it seems your RBDM is already employing the tactic.
I can't quote rules right now, but there is another thread on the Rules forum about being slowed. I believe that forced movement doesn't overcome the limitation, but happy to be proved wrong.
For the second question, I believe that it is a yes as forced movement can only be made to somewhere you can walk (and you can walk through allies). Hazardous terrain grants a saving throw to fall prone in last safe square (DMG somewhere).
Blackjack
First Post
Correct -- I swapped out my ranger utility for the Heal Utility. Yay skill powers!
For me, this was also the first time I'd used 4e's Climb rules. In mid-combat, when one of our foes flew up 20 feet to hit us at range, I realized my Athletics skill is high, and I should take advantage of that -- so I climbed up the windowsills to the second story balcony, and then hit the guy with a melee attack. Unfortunately, my second Climb attempt (to climb onto the roof, in order to run across the building and attack from the other side) failed when I rolled a 2, but thankfully this was within the "you just fail to climb" range and not the "you fall" range.
Memo to self: use Athletics whenever possible; it's one of your best skills. Climbing is great for terrain tactics when the DC isn't too bad.
Also, when you slide someone is it one space or two to slide around a corner. The rules for normal movement say that it is, but there are special rules for forced movement and in the PH they are somewhat ambiguous on this.
And, when you are under an effect that lasts until the end of the enemy who imposed it's next turn, can you hold until after they go next. The rules specifically cover the case where the effect lasts until the end of your next turn, but not this case.
-Aravis
Daern
Explorer
edit: This seemed off topic so I started a new thread...
Hey, Kenku are one of my favorite monsters... they've pretty much replaced kobolds and goblins in my campaign. I'd love to hear P-cat or anyone talk about any ideas and themes they use with Kenku.
Personally, I went through the monster builder and gave them all Acrobatics because I think of them as feathery ninjas. I've also got a tree house lair ready to go for whenever my players decide to track them down.
Hey, Kenku are one of my favorite monsters... they've pretty much replaced kobolds and goblins in my campaign. I'd love to hear P-cat or anyone talk about any ideas and themes they use with Kenku.
Personally, I went through the monster builder and gave them all Acrobatics because I think of them as feathery ninjas. I've also got a tree house lair ready to go for whenever my players decide to track them down.
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Sagiro
Rodent of Uncertain Parentage
On reflection, I think it has to be legal to delay past an effect that ends on an enemy's turn.
The Delay rule in the PH is there to (rightfully) prevent:
1. Postpone negative effects that will happen to you on your turn, and
2. Prolonging negative effects on your enemies, that will end on your turn.
But in the case of a negative effect on YOU, but that ends on an ENEMY'S turn, those don't apply. Worse, disallowing Delays results in some nonsensical results. Let's take the example that occurred last night: a PC is blinded until the end of the enemy attacker's next turn. Imagine also that the PC wants to delay his next turn for some reason other than the Blindness. Finally, let's say we're ruling that you can't "avoid" the effect of the blindness by Delaying.
1. Bad guy goes, causes PC blindness until end of bad guy's next turn
2. PC's turn... he Delays until the after the bad guy goes again. He's still blind.
3. Bad guy goes. PC is still blind on bad guy's turn, naturally. Ordinarily the blindness would be over at the end of the turn, but we've ruled that it's not.
4. Now PC goes. Is he still blind? But if so, when does the state now end? Is he blind for a whole additional turn, until the bad guy goes a second time? Or does the state end at the end of the PC's delayed turn, despite the fact that the original duration had nothing to do with the PC's original turn order?
Note: edited to add, I've posted this question on the rules forums here
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Well, you could rule that it ends at the end of your turn once you delay. in other words, as soon as you delay past the enemy on whose turn it should end, it reverts to an ends at the end of your turn effect.
However, I agree with you that you should be able to delay past the enemy and still have the effect end at the end of his turn.
While this lets you nullify some of the impact of the effect, it is at the cost of letting the enemy act again before you do.
-Aravis
LightPhoenix
First Post
Technically, RAW, no. Slowed reduced your speed to a max of 2. Powers that let you shift a specific number of squares don't reference speed. If it let you shift your speed in squares, then I would say it would, since your speed is 2.
Slowed (p. 277) says it doesn't apply to teleportation, pull, push, or slide. Obviously, this is basically forced movement (and teleportation). Therefore, in practice, I would say it would apply to unforced shifting (ie Expeditious Retreat). However, forced shifting would be able to move you more than two squares. I would define the difference between the two as the former being caused by you or allies, and the latter by enemies or terrain. See also "Not a Move" under "Forced Movement" on p. 285 under "Pull, Push, and Slide".
I would say yes, by "Clear Path" on p. 286 under "Push, Pull, and Slide" and "Occupied Squares" on p. 283. An enemy can move through allied enemies' squares, so it qualifies as a clear path. Similarly, you should be able to slide enemies past each other, especially since you can always slide someone less than the maximum.
My DM has M:tG-size cards in plastic holders, which he would track initiative with and write effects on. It's less cumbersome than a whiteboard and easier to manipulate. For example, if someone changes in the initiate order, or more enemies/allies show up, you just add their cards to the stack. He would also keep track of recharges on the cards as well, so he didn't forget. The whiteboard was okay for simpler battles, but quickly became overwhelmed in complex ones, especially with lots of effects.
Sagiro
Rodent of Uncertain Parentage
Tonight was Run #21, and something of an oddity. We had only four players – the players of Toiva, Logan and Strontium were all out, and we had a guest player as Temigent the Goliath Barbarian. With Bramble, Caldwell and Cobalt, we therefore had three strikers (barbarian, rogue, ranger) and one leader (shaman).
Super-brief plot overview: we started with an interrogation of the captured Kenku assassin from the previous run. He turned out to be a member of an officially sanctioned assassins' group called “The Enlightened” that only agrees to target evil or unsavory types. Our prisoner didn't know anything about why Bramble was chosen as a target, so the interrogation didn't get us much more info. Bramble certainly doesn't seem evil or unsavory.
Anyhow, a couple days later our new Commander, Brogh, decided we should make the Grey Guard tower more defensible. Our job was to inventory and clean out one of the tower's sub-basements, filled with long-abandoned junk. We were clearing out space and sorting through oddments when a stuffed elk's head opened its eyes and spoke. It was being possessed by some intelligence that was incensed to discover that we were not spell-casters. It launched a crazy attack.
To jump back for a second: when we first started going through the sub-basement, Piratecat asked each of us to describe two things we saw in the room. We described a bunch of stuff, including a large statue, a pile of old papers recently used as a mattress by Temigent, a hat-rack, a book-case missing a shelf – random stuff. Little did we know that Piratecat was about to attack us with our own creations!
The malign being animating the elk-head started animating all sorts of junk in the large basement, and impelling said junk to attack us! Most of the stuff was small and treated as minions – a set of fireplace tools, a barrel of warped arrows, some costumes from an old trunk, a painted-over mirror, the elk's head – but a few things, including a stuffed owl-bear, the aforementioned stone statue, and a huge pile of ropes and chains, were tougher to fight.
What made the fight so tough was that the minions (fictionally, random stuff that our one enemy was animating) were endless. At first it looked like we were making headway, and figured that we could whittle down the smaller fry until only the actual enemy would be remaining. But that's not how it worked. In fact, we didn't realize until about the 2/3 point of the fight that there was a skill challenge embedded in the combat itself. We could take standard actions to try to figure out where the guiding intelligence was coming from, and this eventually allowed us to discover the source of our pain – an evil book beneath an overturned shelf. With the room filling up with hostile odds and ends, Bramble annihilated the book with thunder damage and the threat vanished.
Some notes on the battle:
- Piratecat re-purposed some monsters for this fight; we ended up fighting an “Arbalester” (The stuffed owl-bear, which hurled projectiles at us), a “Chain Guardian” (the pile of ropes and chains) and an Animated Statue (the stone statue, naturally). These were a Level 4 Artillery, a Level 5 Elite Controller, and a Level 5 Brute, respectively. Additionally there was a never-ending stream of “Possessed Odds and Ends” which were Level 5 Minions. Conservatively estimating there were 10 of these in total, that makes 1275 XP worth of enemies, which is somewhere between Level+2 and Level+3 for a party of four 5th level PC's. (And Temigent is only 4th level). So, a hard encounter, and it felt like one. No one went unconscious, but Temigent was down to 7 HP at one point, and the other three of us spent a large portion of the fight bloodied.
- Once again, Bramble spent most of her healing on herself; the enemies had the best luck hitting her.
- Temigent, despite being 4th level, way outclasses the rogue and ranger for damage, for which he's incredibly optimized.
- 20 STR
- Wields a heavy flail, which does 2d6 damage
- Feats give him +2 damage, and an additional +1 while raging
- His daily is Bloodhunt Rage, which gives him an addition +4 to damage if he or his foe is bloodied. So, with Avalanche strike while bloodied, he did 6d6 + 18. Even with his at-wills he was doing 2d6+1d8+15. By comparison, the best Cobalt can do with an at-will is 1d4+2d8+8, which assumes combat advantage. To put it another way, the rogues, even with sneak attack, can get their damage up into the low 20s about half the time. Temigent did 45 in one swing with his Avalanche Stirke, and his at-wills rate to do about 25.
- Doc Caldwell has taken the “Student of Artifice” Feat, which gets him the use of the Healing Infusion power from the Eberron Player's Guide. He made good use of it, lobbing a ball of healing goop at a heavily-injured Temigent.
- With the Chain Guardian nearly dead, Bramble used an attack that did a base 2d6 damage. Anything other than snake-eyes would kill it. “Just don't roll two ones,” said Caldwell's player. We all groaned. “Why did you say that?”
Sure enough: snake eyes. Sigh.
- We blew through a LOT of Dailies in this fight, which makes sense given its difficulty.
Super-brief plot overview: we started with an interrogation of the captured Kenku assassin from the previous run. He turned out to be a member of an officially sanctioned assassins' group called “The Enlightened” that only agrees to target evil or unsavory types. Our prisoner didn't know anything about why Bramble was chosen as a target, so the interrogation didn't get us much more info. Bramble certainly doesn't seem evil or unsavory.
Anyhow, a couple days later our new Commander, Brogh, decided we should make the Grey Guard tower more defensible. Our job was to inventory and clean out one of the tower's sub-basements, filled with long-abandoned junk. We were clearing out space and sorting through oddments when a stuffed elk's head opened its eyes and spoke. It was being possessed by some intelligence that was incensed to discover that we were not spell-casters. It launched a crazy attack.
To jump back for a second: when we first started going through the sub-basement, Piratecat asked each of us to describe two things we saw in the room. We described a bunch of stuff, including a large statue, a pile of old papers recently used as a mattress by Temigent, a hat-rack, a book-case missing a shelf – random stuff. Little did we know that Piratecat was about to attack us with our own creations!
The malign being animating the elk-head started animating all sorts of junk in the large basement, and impelling said junk to attack us! Most of the stuff was small and treated as minions – a set of fireplace tools, a barrel of warped arrows, some costumes from an old trunk, a painted-over mirror, the elk's head – but a few things, including a stuffed owl-bear, the aforementioned stone statue, and a huge pile of ropes and chains, were tougher to fight.
What made the fight so tough was that the minions (fictionally, random stuff that our one enemy was animating) were endless. At first it looked like we were making headway, and figured that we could whittle down the smaller fry until only the actual enemy would be remaining. But that's not how it worked. In fact, we didn't realize until about the 2/3 point of the fight that there was a skill challenge embedded in the combat itself. We could take standard actions to try to figure out where the guiding intelligence was coming from, and this eventually allowed us to discover the source of our pain – an evil book beneath an overturned shelf. With the room filling up with hostile odds and ends, Bramble annihilated the book with thunder damage and the threat vanished.
Some notes on the battle:
- Piratecat re-purposed some monsters for this fight; we ended up fighting an “Arbalester” (The stuffed owl-bear, which hurled projectiles at us), a “Chain Guardian” (the pile of ropes and chains) and an Animated Statue (the stone statue, naturally). These were a Level 4 Artillery, a Level 5 Elite Controller, and a Level 5 Brute, respectively. Additionally there was a never-ending stream of “Possessed Odds and Ends” which were Level 5 Minions. Conservatively estimating there were 10 of these in total, that makes 1275 XP worth of enemies, which is somewhere between Level+2 and Level+3 for a party of four 5th level PC's. (And Temigent is only 4th level). So, a hard encounter, and it felt like one. No one went unconscious, but Temigent was down to 7 HP at one point, and the other three of us spent a large portion of the fight bloodied.
- Once again, Bramble spent most of her healing on herself; the enemies had the best luck hitting her.
- Temigent, despite being 4th level, way outclasses the rogue and ranger for damage, for which he's incredibly optimized.
- 20 STR
- Wields a heavy flail, which does 2d6 damage
- Feats give him +2 damage, and an additional +1 while raging
- His daily is Bloodhunt Rage, which gives him an addition +4 to damage if he or his foe is bloodied. So, with Avalanche strike while bloodied, he did 6d6 + 18. Even with his at-wills he was doing 2d6+1d8+15. By comparison, the best Cobalt can do with an at-will is 1d4+2d8+8, which assumes combat advantage. To put it another way, the rogues, even with sneak attack, can get their damage up into the low 20s about half the time. Temigent did 45 in one swing with his Avalanche Stirke, and his at-wills rate to do about 25.
- Doc Caldwell has taken the “Student of Artifice” Feat, which gets him the use of the Healing Infusion power from the Eberron Player's Guide. He made good use of it, lobbing a ball of healing goop at a heavily-injured Temigent.
- With the Chain Guardian nearly dead, Bramble used an attack that did a base 2d6 damage. Anything other than snake-eyes would kill it. “Just don't roll two ones,” said Caldwell's player. We all groaned. “Why did you say that?”
Sure enough: snake eyes. Sigh.
- We blew through a LOT of Dailies in this fight, which makes sense given its difficulty.
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