D&D 4E Running player commentary on PCat's 4E Campaign - Heroic tier (finished)

[KidSnide]

Also, in my experience, 4e really isn't suited to the one a day combat particularly so if the players know its likely the only fight of the day. Dailies, and APs go a LONG ways to totally changing the fight. Plus the fights can be pretty long.

In my experience, 4e is better at handling the one a day combat than any of the previous editions. Sure, dailies and APs make a big difference, but it doesn't compare to the arcane caster's ability to blow all of his daily resources in a single fight. It's just that a GM needs to be aware of the fact that a L+4-5 (or 6) encounter is a reasonable choice if the PCs know that there will only be a single fight. (You should adjust that to accomodate your party's level of optimization and tactical expertise.)

-KS

 

[Markn]

Maybe, maybe not.

IME, those fights have been generally unsatisfying and even moreso the higher level the party is. It basically becomes bomb after bomb powers. Maybe its my design, but I've tried a fair number of fights with different tactics - staggering enemies arrival, all kinds of terrain, solo + monsters, multiple elites, etc. My group is tactically very sound and they require a big fight for them to feel any sort of threat. I also don't care for the mechanic of healing surges as the PCs generally don't feel fear until they start running low. Of course, there are 2 leaders in my group and that may affect how I feel about things.

 

[Markn]

I do have one idea on addressing the 'One fight a day = Constantly at full' issue:

Instead of an Extended Rest being set by game time (i.e. 6 hours), only allow a set number of Extended Rests per Level. Thus, it doesn't matter how many DAYS stretch on, becauset here are only so many Extended Rests you can get. It would function much like the Milestone mechanic - let's say that it makes sense for a party to rest 3 times per level, so you can rest after every 3 encounters.

This makes a lot of sense if for instance you've ever ran a skill challenge that takes a LOT of in-game time (for instance, a several-days journey through a desert). It would make less sense for PCs to lose healing surges, only to rest half way through the skill challenge, and thus get their surges back before the challenge is over.

Interesting. That's a concept worth playing around with. Thanks for the concept.

 

[KidSnide]

Maybe, maybe not.

IME, those fights have been generally unsatisfying and even moreso the higher level the party is. It basically becomes bomb after bomb powers. Maybe its my design, but I've tried a fair number of fights with different tactics - staggering enemies arrival, all kinds of terrain, solo + monsters, multiple elites, etc. My group is tactically very sound and they require a big fight for them to feel any sort of threat. I also don't care for the mechanic of healing surges as the PCs generally don't feel fear until they start running low. Of course, there are 2 leaders in my group and that may affect how I feel about things.

PC parties can definitely have too much healing. Sure, it makes the party hugely resilient, but it also makes combat less fun because there is so little danger. As a GM, it's important that the number of available surge triggers is a resource that the PCs consider limited. I'm curious if any of PCat's players have spent meaningful time in other leader-heavy groups, but I bet this all-striker group is fantastic for fast, exciting (and sometimes terrifying) combats.

I'm sure character level is also important here in terms of having tons of dailies. All the encounters I've written were at heroic levels (mostly level 7).

-KS

 

[Rechan]

PC parties can definitely have too much healing. Sure, it makes the party hugely resilient, but it also makes combat less fun because there is so little danger. As a GM, it's important that the number of available surge triggers is a resource that the PCs consider limited. I'm curious if any of PCat's players have spent meaningful time in other leader-heavy groups, but I bet this all-striker group is fantastic for fast, exciting (and sometimes terrifying) combats.

Yeah. We have 2 melee strikers, a serious tank (Warforged battlerager fighter in heavy armor) and a controller. And me, the bard.

So as soon as my 2 heals are down, it's 'second wind, healing potions, and pray' time. In fact, we almost died because I went down early in the last fight, and if not for the healing potion on my belt, I'd have died.

 

[blargney the second]

I've definitely noticed that combats in 4e are way more tense (and IME cooler) when there is only one leader. When we had a cleric and a warlord in the party, pretty much everything was a cakewalk.

 

[Aravis]

This was run #29 of the campaign: “Return to the Beholder's Lair”

I'm sure I'm forgetting lots of stuff as usual; Aravis, if you're reading this, I'd love for you to chime in with your initial impressions of playing the sorcerer, along with what powers you were using.

The Sorcerer was fun, although I am really anxious to see how he is in a variety of different fights. This fight he mostly hung out at the back and lobbed bombs at Gullet. I am curious to see how he does in a more mobile battle field and with more foes.

The powers I used were:

• Elemental Shift - I used this to change my Energy Resistance type to Necrotic.
• Chaotic Defense - I rolled a 3, which meant if I was attacked the critter would take 2d6. Unfortunately, it never attacked me after I activated that one. Although, given that I was down at 18 hit points after its first round, probably not so unfortunate.
• Thunder Leap - I took this one as a minion killer, but oh my gosh. What a great "get the bleep out of Dodge" power. It allowed me to leap 10 squares away from it without invoking an Attack of Opportunity.*
• Dazzling Ray - Oh what a lovely boom. And radiant too.
• Mists of Disarray
• Dancing Lightning
• Energy Strobe - Used this twice hoping to roll a 5 on the d6 roll (5 would have gotten radiant damage.)
• Chaos Bolt - Never got to use this one, but it really is best used with multiple possible targets.

- Aravis

* Yes, I know they renamed it, but I refuse to use the new name. The old one was good enough.

 

[Dragonblade]

Maybe, maybe not.

IME, those fights have been generally unsatisfying and even moreso the higher level the party is. It basically becomes bomb after bomb powers. Maybe its my design, but I've tried a fair number of fights with different tactics - staggering enemies arrival, all kinds of terrain, solo + monsters, multiple elites, etc. My group is tactically very sound and they require a big fight for them to feel any sort of threat. I also don't care for the mechanic of healing surges as the PCs generally don't feel fear until they start running low. Of course, there are 2 leaders in my group and that may affect how I feel about things.

Two leaders can make a HUGE difference. But yeah, I have run into the same problem as you. My group are all borderline powergamers, half of which are former Ultimate Delve champions. They know how to bring the pain.

I had been upping the encounter level of all my encounters but it still wasn't really threatening them, so I found a really good article by ChattyDM about 4e's "super secret synergy bonus" and how to account for it. It was very eye opening for me.

Essentially, as players begin to master 4e's complexities they become more difficult to challenge. They use smart tactics, they focus fire, they optimize their characters, and the develop nice combo attacks with their fellow party members. As a result combats of the appropriate level just become easier for them.

Read the article here:

Keeping up with the PCs: Part 1, The Secret Synergy Bonus : Critical Hits

And part 2 here:

Keeping up with the PCs: Part 2, What Not to Do and Quick Fixes : Critical Hits

So I implemented his suggestions and it made a HUGE difference in my game. Bottom line, I increased the damage output of monster and NPC attacks by +5 per tier per attack. It was funny, after my last couple of games, I was getting comments back about much tougher the combats seemed, PCs were actually getting dropped into negatives at least once per fight and there was a much bigger sense of danger.

At first I was worried that it would be too much for them and I would have a TPK, but my players adapted well. I'm also pretty generous in giving out appropriate level items to my players. If I had been stingier on magic there might have been more of a threat of a TPK, but its worked out very well for me so far.

PCs before were hoarding their dailies since they didn't need them and then would drop them all in the last fight before they took a rest and would just dominate. Now each PC is being forced to actually use one or two dailies per encounter. Also, the cleric player was thinking of playing something else, and the other players were encouraging him, saying they didn't even need a cleric. Now they are begging him to stay a cleric, or asking for someone else to play a leader.

I love it!

 

[the Jester]

Of course, there are 2 leaders in my group and that may affect how I feel about things.

It does, trust me.

My first 4e group had 2-3 leaders (party size 6-8) and only one of them died from 1st to 16th level.

My new 4e group has had 1 leader and we've had three fatalities- and they're still in the 3rd to 5th level range!

It makes a HUGE difference. So does a willingness to retreat, though.

 

[Markn]

I'm sure character level is also important here in terms of having tons of dailies. All the encounters I've written were at heroic levels (mostly level 7).

-KS

Character level is pretty huge. At level 7, each PC only has a couple of dailies. As they start to get 3 or 4 and start adding up the utilities, this makes the single day fights even more challenging.