D&D 5E Sage Advice is back!

Jer

Legend
Supporter
It doesn't really break the math of the game.
It doesn't break the math, it breaks the perceived level of compatibility between characters built with the 2014 rules and the 2024 rules. A character that is essentially the same but has an extra feat is obviously better than the character without the feat. Making them give up something of value in exchange for the feat would keep the numbers similar and also the perception that the game hasn't really changed among players. (And since most feats also give a bonus to an ability score it's clearly better to have a character with a free feat than to have one that doesn't).

If they go too far with adding new stuff to characters they will create an edition break. They really don't need to do it so I'd really like to see them avoid it.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I thought they made a deliberate decision to move away from feat chains in 5E. I wonder why they decided to go back on that.
Well, during the 5e playtest, the audience was pretty much split down the middle on whether or not the game should even have feats, and the problems with feat chains in 3e and to a lesser extent 4e were one of the things the anti-feat crowd were most vocal about wanting to avoid. Keeping feats, but granting fewer of them and making each more powerful to balance them against an ASI was the compromise WotC landed on. The demographics have changed since then, and now the majority of players don’t have the same hangups about feats that the early playtesters did. And WotC probably figures that feat chains won’t cause the same problems with the fewer, more powerful feats model than it did with micro-feats every other level.
 


Parmandur

Book-Friend
Im ambivalent about feat chains, but this sounds cool to me otherwise.

I thought they made a deliberate decision to move away from feat chains in 5E. I wonder why they decided to go back on that.

He said why. They got a lot of positive feedback from people who enjoyed the short chains in Strixhaven.
Yeah, he said that the negative feedback was about long chains with branches that had big implications. Two Feat long chains with clear narrative reasoning, ad with the Strixhaven and Dragonlance options, is different.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yeah, he said that the negative feedback was about long chains with branches that had big implications. Two Feat long chains with clear narrative reasoning, ad with the Strixhaven and Dragonlance options, is different.
Yeah. I think three feats are possible, but I doubt they will go beyond that number and most will be two feats long.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
When he talked about it he talked about the later feats being better than the standard for feats. That means that the intro feats will be of standard quality and then later ones a bit better.
Hmm… That’s a little concerning because I could see it making a-la-carte feats and/or ASIs suboptimal. In theory I would prefer the chain feats stick to standard feat power level and the prerequisites mostly be a flavor thing. Of course, in practice the “standard feat power level” is wildly inconsistent, so this will probably work out fine.
 

Burnside

Space Jam Confirmed
Supporter
Regarding the expanded use of hit dice going forward, I am pretty sure the Short Rest will not exist in the updated PHB. I think all short rest recharge abilities will be changed to "number of uses equals Proficiency Bonus per long rest", like we've seen in all the recent books. You'll be able to burn hit dice to recover hit points without having to rest for a hour to do it (it'll probably take 1 minute, though, so you can't do it during a combat encounter). Warlocks will get a "recover all spell slots" ability that they can use a number of times per long rest equal to their proficiency bonus. Same with monk ki points.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Yeah, he said that the negative feedback was about long chains with branches that had big implications. Two Feat long chains with clear narrative reasoning, ad with the Strixhaven and Dragonlance options, is different.
Yeah, this is why I say I’m ambivalent (literally, “of two minds.”) I like what we’ve seen in Strixhaven and UA and I’m excited to see more of the same. At the same time, I can imagine a world where this opens the door for stuff I’m not as keen on. While I don’t think the slope is slippery enough to be a serious concern, I have seen what’s at the bottom and still think it’s best to use due caution when playing around it.
 


Burnside

Space Jam Confirmed
Supporter
In a sense, 5e does have something like feat chains already: the Warlock's Eldritch Invocations that require a particular Pact or Spell, and then some require certain class levels.

If WotC keeps the new feat chains short and the individual feats similarly powered, should be ok in general, IMO.

I kinda liked it that the warlock is pretty much the one "Build it yourself - good luck! You can definitely mess this up by picking the wrong stuff!" class in 5E for people who wanted that level of tinkering/planning/customizing. I just don't think it should be the norm. Not saying that's what this is, just that I don't want that.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
It doesn't break the math, it breaks the perceived level of compatibility between characters built with the 2014 rules and the 2024 rules. A character that is essentially the same but has an extra feat is obviously better than the character without the feat. Making them give up something of value in exchange for the feat would keep the numbers similar and also the perception that the game hasn't really changed among players. (And since most feats also give a bonus to an ability score it's clearly better to have a character with a free feat than to have one that doesn't).

If they go too far with adding new stuff to characters they will create an edition break. They really don't need to do it so I'd really like to see them avoid it.
Yeah, I wouldn’t count on that degree of parity between characters built with the 2014 rules and the 2024 rules. Heck, characters built with options from Tasha’s are already mathematically superior to characters without. Whatever rules changes come in 2024, I expect them to bring the baseline up to post-Tasha’s standard, which means leaving 2014 PHB-only characters behind in terms of power level.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
In a sense, 5e does have something like feat chains already: the Warlock's Eldritch Invocations that require a particular Pact or Spell, and then some require certain class levels.

If WotC keeps the new feat chains short and the individual feats similarly powered, should be ok in general, IMO.
Yeah, if they keep thenpower in line, it could be feasible go retool the Feats to break the chain on homwbrew, in theory.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I kinda liked it that the warlock is pretty much the one "Build it yourself - good luck! You can definitely mess this up by picking the wrong stuff!" class in 5E for people who wanted that level of tinkering/planning/customizing. I just don't think it should be the norm. Not saying that's what this is, just that I don't want that.
How bad can you really mess a Warlock up, though? Like, you can make a suboptimal character, sure, but you can do that with any class, and the difference between an optimal character and a suboptimal one is much smaller than it was in 3e.
 


JEB

Legend
Feat chains are in going forward.

Backgrounds with feats are in going forward.

The use of hit dice will be expanded. Not sure where that’s coming from or where it’s going.
Plus the Tasha's/MOTM revisions to how character races are built, and likely the Tasha's core class changes integrated, and possibly further class reworking (re: short rests), and the lore changes.

Seems pretty clear at this point that the intention is for 2024 edition to be to 5E what 2E was to 1E - compatible enough that you can use the old stuff, but with different default assumptions for character design. Whether it winds up that divergent, guess we'll see.
 

Osgood

Adventurer
I suppose it's a question on what will players consider compatibility. For some it will mean that you can build a character out of either players handbook and sit down at the table an play with no discernable difference in ability or power, for others the player characters could be built completely differently, using new concepts and mechanics, but as long as the adventures and monsters can be used interchangeably it's compatible.

I suspect it will be somewhere in the middle, but skewing toward the latter option... You could run Out of the Abyss with out much of an issue, and if someone creates a character out of the 2014 PHB they'll be different from those with 2024 characters, maybe a little underpowered and/or have some elements that feel off, but overall keep up just fine.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Plus the Tasha's/MOTM revisions to how character races are built, and likely the Tasha's core class changes integrated, and possibly further class reworking (re: short rests), and the lore changes.

Seems pretty clear at this point that the intention is for 2024 edition to be to 5E what 2E was to 1E - compatible enough that you can use the old stuff, but with different default assumptions for character design. Whether it winds up that divergent, guess we'll see.
I think we are looking at a 6E, essentially, but not one that breaks compatibility as 3E and 4E did.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
It doesn't break the math, it breaks the perceived level of compatibility between characters built with the 2014 rules and the 2024 rules. A character that is essentially the same but has an extra feat is obviously better than the character without the feat. Making them give up something of value in exchange for the feat would keep the numbers similar and also the perception that the game hasn't really changed among players. (And since most feats also give a bonus to an ability score it's clearly better to have a character with a free feat than to have one that doesn't).

If they go too far with adding new stuff to characters they will create an edition break. They really don't need to do it so I'd really like to see them avoid it.
It doesn't do thst anymore than Theros, Tasha's, Ravenloft, Strixhaven and apparently upcoming Dragonlance do. That is to say, by the time they put this in the PHB, it will be pretty common already.
 

Dungeon Delver's Guide

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top