Savage Species feat - Fling Enemy

[Shard O'Glase]

Accepting Shard O' Glase's numbers, which I have to do due to having no books here, it's easier to imagine if you look at it as a proportionality issue.

NRG

I looked it up 4000 lbs would be for a huge 27 str creature, at 25 str it would be 3200 lbs. The only thing I can think of is their huge distances are different for them thing. Still 2 tons of force is two tons of force so while sure longer arm= better lever and all, I still think that 600' is too far for me.

I have to admit there weight limits seem to work out at this level fairly well. Heavy load 27str is 1040lbs, and it is x4 for huge a fire giant comes in at what 5400lbs. (18' tall I think so based off 6' 200lbs human x3x3x3) I haven't checked other creatures yet but being able to about lift there own weight for the base fire gaint seems right.

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, this feat needs to be reworked. Isn't there an offical thread somewhere on Savage Species where they want to collect questions and comments? Someone should mention this feat there.

IceBear

 

[Kusuf ibn Zaid]

I looked it up 4000 lbs would be for a huge 27 str creature, at 25 str it would be 3200 lbs. The only thing I can think of is their huge distances are different for them thing. Still 2 tons of force is two tons of force so while sure longer arm= better lever and all, I still think that 600' is too far for me.

I have to admit there weight limits seem to work out at this level fairly well. Heavy load 27str is 1040lbs, and it is x4 for huge a fire giant comes in at what 5400lbs. (18' tall I think so based off 6' 200lbs human x3x3x3) I haven't checked other creatures yet but being able to about lift there own weight for the base fire gaint seems right.

There really isn't too much of a point of bringing real world physics into this. Strength should be proportional to the square of the creature's linear size, while the mass is proportional to the cube. At some point the creature can't even lift its own weight. I don't know whether a Huge sized creature is larger than the size of largest land animal allowed, but it has got to be close.

- Kusuf

 

[kigmatzomat]

MM1 feat for dragons

I was quite excited when I saw the feat Fling Enemy in the book Savage Species. Has there been errata?
- Kusuf

Dunno. I've been playing with the dragon "Snatch" feat that is similar.

Snatch: [edited] A dragon that hits with a claw or bite attack attempts to start a grapple as though it had the improved grab special attack.... The dragon can drop a creature it has snatched as a free action or use a standard action to fling it aside. A flung creature travels 10 feet, and takes 1d6 points of damage, per age category of the dragon. If the dragon flings it while flying, the creature suffers this amount or falling damage, whichever is greater.

Now this is a two-fer feat, combining improved grab with fling. It gives dragons a fling range from 10 feet to 120 feet (non-incremented) dealing 1-12d6. (roughly 1d6/3 HD)

But since Snatch doesn't allow targeting while Fling does, Fling is also a two-fer feat since it gives the "exotic weapon: thrown victim" feat, so maybe it should be nerfed a bit too. Maybe range of 20ft/3HD?

 

[starwolf]

Huge is not as big as you think.....

An elephant is classed as a Huge creature. A Storm giant is classed as a Huge creature and is only 21 ft tall. Many of the Dinosauers were in excess of this size. So it is still possibel to TRY to apply some semblance of real world physics to the problem. And part of the problem is not just raw strength equations but applied force and leverage.

Can a Human take the Fling feat and toss Tiny sized creatures the same distance.....or even a 3rd of the distance?

 

[Celebrim]

Talk about opening the metaphorical can of worms.

D&D doesn't handle issues of scale very well, and so it is best not to write rules that demonstrate that.

That should be posted on every D&D rulesmith's monitor in big colorful letters lest they forget.

If you are willing to accept that there are 18' foot tall 'people' with the same proportionate strength of 6' tall weight lifters then you are going to have to deal with thier ability to fling mere humans like pebbles. Actually, the problem is probably worse than that, because in order to get the big damage bonus the proportionate strength of giants is probably greater than humans. Witness the 400' human shot put.

The situation is like having a 6' long ant with the same proportionate strength of its 1/4" long counterpart. All the sudden you have an ant lifting small buses and carrying them around.

You can't use physics to play D&D. All physics is going to tell you is that you haven't thought hard enough about the subject and you are probably going to have to start your game system over from scratch if you are going to keep bring physics into it.

Which is why you shouldn't write rules about flinging humans around. If you assume giants can throw you for 20d6 damage, then they can spike you into the ground for a good deal more than that, and then they can hit you with a club for a good deal more than that. And if we are also going to assume that giants have propotionate ability to take damage as humans, then getting hit by a sword for oh 60d6 damage should be right about even with thier hitpoints.

I'm guess a 'good rule' allows a giant to throw a human roughly twice the giants own height, doing corresponding falling damage no matter whether the human goes the full distance. There, now our Cloud Giant buddy can heave a human roughly 40' for 4d6 damage as a standard action during a grapple ... which isn't going to break the game nor is it therefore going to cause anyone to start thinking about the physics underneath the rule and therefore keeps the game integrity intact.

And you don't even need a feat for it. And it can be easily scaled for any two sizes of creature with a simple table.

The -20 penalty on the grapple check would only apply if the giant wanted to do it one handed anyway. If he didn't mind getting laughed at by his giant buds he could 'granny shot' a human just fine.

 

[starwolf]

Ok, upon further thought skip real-world physics and apply game-world physics......If an orc shotput is considered a large weapon for a medium sized character and has a range increment of 10 ft. then would a medium sized character be considered a large weapon for a Huge giant? and would the range increment be tripled? so then the range increment for the fling should only be 30 ft. giving a maximum distance of 150 ft. and just for simplicity sake the maximum damage a character can take for a vertical fling is 15d6 (save's applicable) and for a horizantal fling is 5d6+(STR MOD) (saves NOT applicable)


Now how's that?


EDIT: I was writing this while Celebrim was replying....and I have to agree with the metaphorical can o' worms.....

 

[Kusuf ibn Zaid]

Well said Celebrim.

In my mind a 'good rule' for flinging an opponent should do roughly the same damage that could be done in melee. This might be based on strength, size, or both.

Personally, I would have treated the flung opponent just like a weapon, doing 4d6 + STR modifier (or whatever), independent of the distance thrown. The only difference for this weapon is that the weapon is damaged as well as the target.

- Kusuf

 

[melkoriii]

Ok, upon further thought skip real-world physics and apply game-world physics......If an orc shotput is considered a large weapon for a medium sized character and has a range increment of 10 ft. then would a medium sized character be considered a large weapon for a Huge giant? and would the range increment be tripled? so then the range increment for the fling should only be 30 ft. giving a maximum distance of 150 ft. and just for simplicity sake the maximum damage a character can take for a vertical fling is 15d6 (save's applicable) and for a horizantal fling is 5d6+(STR MOD) (saves NOT applicable)


Now how's that?


EDIT: I was writing this while Celebrim was replying....and I have to agree with the metaphorical can o' worms.....

See on this line of thought. I like.

I always thought it was stupid that as a Person I can pick up a rock (tiny) and throw it a good 200-300' (granted with no accuracy) But in D&D 3ed my character can only throw MAX 50’

I really like the logic you used there to find the range increment. Going my that a Medium sized character can throw a tiny sized rock 150’ (30’ increment) and still hit something (-5 to hit)


So that’s how you handle a Trent Throw rocks like in LotR the Two Towers.

 

[Andion Isurand]

What happens if they punt an enemy instead of throw it?

Or they grab an enemy by one leg and swing them around like a club?