D&D 5E Scared Cow: magic Weapon & Armor plusses

[transtemporal]

I'd love to play in a game like that! I generally enjoy games where the GM takes the time to customize things. Any halfway competent GM can manage the game balance impact.

It's just those lazy incompetent DMs that are the problem. Bad time management skills doing irrelevant things that don't contribute to my enjoyment of the campaign.

 

[Lord Twig]

As others have mentioned, I've entirely shied away from "mundane" magical weapons. My players must ask anytime they want to purchase potions and scrolls. Some places have them, most don't .

When I'm in a pinch, I give out unusual items from the DMG. But no simple items, no basic + weapons. It's become a bit of a joke to them, since every weapon seems to come with some extreme negative consequence or price. And many of my player's past experience is anchored in "conventional" D&D, with "I swing my magic sword to do hit more often and do more damage." So it's pretty new to them.

Consequently, and oddly, they are rejecting most of the magic, which has it's own flavor, but is also a bit of a shame.

Hilarious+*cough cough*: the dunce of the party gets demi-godlike localized insights and delivers them to a massively powerful malevolent creature in exchange for adventure leads and some minor treasure.

Hilarious + *neener neener*: They pass up a hugely powerful magic item because of the potential negative impact, and an NPC figures out they're hiding something (Natural 20 Insight) and runs out to investigate, and discovers and grabs it. Returns with a sheepish (but righteous) attitude.

Sad: Party hoards treasure (without using it) because of the cost, and as a result, a young NPC will likely never see his father again, since his soul is trapped in the item -- and the PCs know it. This story isn't done yet, so there's a slim chance it will be resolved.

One of my more extreme items, not yet shared with PCs, is Yladrin's Hammer: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...hero!&p=7067032&highlight=yladrin#post7067032

But that's on the upper end of crazy. Most stuff is way more mild.

It's a joke to them because you are making joke items. I understand that you say Yladrin's Hammer is an extreme item, but it sounds like you actually planned to give it to your group. And no one will want it. I know that no one in my group would.

What is the point of adding negative result to items that are supposed to be a reward? I guess that you are having fun with them, and that's good, a DM needs his fun too, but it doesn't seem to be much fun for your players other than a short laugh at your latest joke item. Why else do you think they are rejecting them?

Give them a real item; one that doesn't have crippling drawbacks and see how they respond. See if their eyes light up. See if they talk about how cool it is. By now even a "boring" +1 sword would be so unique that they would be thrilled to get it.

 

[merwins]

It's a joke to them because you are making joke items. I understand that you say Yladrin's Hammer is an extreme item, but it sounds like you actually planned to give it to your group. And no one will want it. I know that no one in my group would.

Give them a real item; one that doesn't have crippling drawbacks and see how they respond. See if their eyes light up. See if they talk about how cool it is. By now even a "boring" +1 sword would be so unique that they would be thrilled to get it.

You're probably right on the latter point. But my players do have magic items. Some of which they use to great (and overpowering) effect. I've got characters walking around with a passive perceptions of 18 and 22. It's literally impossible for them to not notice a threat. One has a magic knife with no magical pluses, but that cuts through any mundane armor.

Some items they use sparingly. Other very powerful items, they simply leave "at home" when they go on adventures. I'm not inclined to keep feeding the party monster items. The game would become hideously imbalanced, where I feel it already is.

Just to be clear, after I created Yladrin's Hammer, I never intended to give to the party. I knew they'd have none of it. It's unlikely any PC ever would. But IMO, it's a fun storytelling tool.

 

[Ath'kethin]

::shrug:: Maybe it's just me, but I never met a magic sword of any type that I didn't like.

Lan-"if your magic sword is too boring, superfluous to your needs, or has been supplanted by something better, feel free to put it in a box and send it to me COD care of the Fallen Flagon Pub, High St., ..."-efan

I will happily provide you with opinions on which you'll disagree, just for the enjoyment of seeing how you'll sign your posts.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Are plusses to hit/damage or AC from magical weapons and armor a sacred cow that would feel off if it wasn't there?

We had started a game at 5th and were allowed an uncommon magic item each, and every single person who used a weapon regularly picked a +1 weapon. And really, the number of rolls that these will add to eclipses any other +1 you'll get.

(Yes, there are other good items - in a previous campaign that did the same thing I ended up with a flying item that gave me lots of uniqueness and flexibility, but those seem to be the exception.)

What if magic weapons only carried something nifty and the fact that they were magic to overcome resistance? This one has a +2 crit range, this one sheds light and does +d6 fire damage, this one fights for the wielder so acts as if you have a 17 STR when wielding it no matter what it really is.

With bounded accuracy I don't think this is the killer that it would be in some earlier editions, though it may make the "get a 20" in your attack ability something that has a higher priority.

This would be a moderate nerf to magic weapons and armor, mostly because of how prevalent the rolls are. Would that (further) upset the balance between weapon-users and spell casters?

Would you play in a game knowing that magic weapons were being changed like this? Would it impact your class selection if you did?

I completely prefer the no plusses style of magic items. More interesting/fun, generally ime

 

[Dualazi]

I'll dissent with the general trend I guess and say that I do like the various +'s in items. For one, some people do simply enjoy watching their numbers get bigger and benchmarking themselves accordingly as opposed to having lots of potentially niche options. It's not my preferred style, but I understand the appeal. Furthermore, having every item have some profound effect leads me to believe there will be less of them for balance reasons, and I like that especially late game I can drop some filler +1 items to flesh out PCs that didn't prioritize them.

I also don't think doing this solves much. If you take away all the +hit items, then players that like to optimize will move on to the next best thing, which is likely damage. So instead of having a plethora of +1 swords, now you have a team rocking 3 +0 flametongues. Likewise, I don't know that flametongue is inherently super interesting in and of itself. Yes, flaming swords are cool, but you can easily fluff a +1 sword to be equally so, by giving it a storied history and unique appearance or make.

 

[Li Shenron]

What if magic weapons only carried something nifty and the fact that they were magic to overcome resistance? This one has a +2 crit range, this one sheds light and does +d6 fire damage, this one fights for the wielder so acts as if you have a 17 STR when wielding it no matter what it really is.

I have been doing this already for a long time, so it doesn't feel like a sacred cow to me.

 

[Krachek]

I think you meant magic items, and no it really can't, unless you are willing to nerf martial characters altogether. From about 11th on, full casters are so powerful that unless you ramp up the magical martial items, they are going to lag behind in their ability to effect change in the world around them dramatically.

I a running two games 11th+ and have DMed or played in four more since 5E came out. I can unequivocally say that without magic items the fighters, rogues, rangers, and paladins would have been screwed (lots of resistant and a few immune to non-magical weapons enemies).

May have a chat with C Perkins.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/05/08/how-was-5e-balanced-in-regards-to-magic-items/

I play a wizard. I frequently encounter monster with resist fire, lightning, acid, ...
I do remember fireball that have done 7 damage to 4 targets. Resist fire and magic resistance....

 

[Krachek]

Okay, sorry, all of the DMs at my FLGS who start at 5th are practicing BadWrongFun. They are playing the game wrong because they don't do it your One True Way. Thanks, I'll pass on your shaming.

Second, as explained in the OP, weapon and armor can adjust a huge number of die rolls. A magic weapon could easily hit 20+ in a session - multiple attacks, applying on hit rolls and damage rolls. So whenever there is player agency in picking an item, perhaps as the rewards for a quest, that is too valuable to pass up. Now, regardless if you believe in ever letting the players get a choice, perhaps others do, so it's still a valid choice.

Please try to add to the discussion next time, instead of just saying it isn't a valid topic to discuss because no one should do it that way. Your table is not the only one.

You are right. For what I have seen, 5 ed run better without the magic +.
Bound accuracy is fragile, especially against AC optimization that make most monster useless.

But DnD can also be a place where you can be invulnerable, so why not let a player crank its ac to 26,
Or become a slayer with sharpshooter and a +3 bow.

At the end the Dm is in right to pick or allow items that fit in his game and satisfied its player needs.

 

[SkidAce]

I still agree with the other person who said you can use +1 weapons AND add interesting story and abilities to make them cool.

If I was creating a magic sword, making it hit better would be one of its abilities, or otherwise whats the point....get it...point...