scouts and skirmishing

[SBMC]

I agree with the threads starter in that I have difficulty seeing how moving around increases the damage one does with an attack (though I can semi-justify it myself).

The guy is fast, agile - he runs, when he sees an opening (which is easier since he is getting different angles on you each square he moves) he stops and fires (or uses his melee weapon). Perhaps "getting by" your shield (in the real sense, not the game sense), hitting you in an unprotected spot, etc.

And I think banning a rule based on the fact that you can't figure out how it works logically with in the game world is fine, it is not a 'crappy' thing to do so.

I think it is crappy (the decision NOT the person) as well - to me this is not a very difficult concept to understand especially for a DM.

The rules should serve the game not the other way around. Allowing a mechanic in your game that doesn't make sense to you or the player just because it's a mechanic is not a good thing to do. Now if someone can adequatley explain how the skirmish ability works (which I believe a couple people have done) then I think this issue can be resolved.

The DM can do as he chooses; it is his game. But the game has other people in it too - called PLAYERS.

I don't think that a precise realistic explanation of a game mechanic is really necessary to allow it IMO - especially from a WoTC book. It is one thing if you think it is overpowered (PLENTY of those, especially PrC's and OG stuff) or unbalances your campaign somehow - but this is not the case.

This is not like some undefined action not covered in the RAW (like the current 5 foot step into mid air thread). The fact of the matter the class gets to shoot/melee attack and move and gets bonuses for that. What's the problem? How is that not understandable? For example - How is it that a veteran fighter becomes susceptible to a sneak attack when he is fighting two foes on opposite sides? Does anyone question that? The guy is a FIGHTER after all; able to fight…

We have a Scout in our party. He uses ranged combat - it works great! When I first got CA I could see what was going on from the get go - I would take ranged with a Scout over melee every time (it seems to have far more advantages with the movement requirement). He darts around us, between us, and such as we fight. In areas of heavy rubble it works out great as well seeing as he can skirt around an opponents cover and smack him with some extra d6's and have a better AC as well. In tight areas he is at a huge disadvantage of course…

 

[Synthetik Fish]

Trying not to stray too off-topic...

But if you look at the duelist in the 3.5 DMG, it is my understanding (in the brief time that I looked at it) that the duelists' precise strike can also be used at range. The restrictions are that it has to be with a piercing weapon, you can only use it one-handed, and you can't have a weapon or shield being used in your other hand... it says nothing about it being a melee weapon. This would allow for thrown daggers, darts, and hand-crossbows to be used and gained the added bonus.

Granted, the ability doesn't list a range restriction (which implies that it was only meant for use in melee) but I would assume that any rational DM (if he allowed it to be used at a range) would restrict it to 30'... just like any of the other similar abilities.

Taking all of this in perspective, 10 levels of duelist seems like a lot to give up for only gaining +2d6 to damage with a hand-crossbow...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

But if you look at the duelist in the 3.5 DMG, it is my understanding (in the brief time that I looked at it) that the duelists' precise strike can also be used at range. The restrictions are that it has to be with a piercing weapon, you can only use it one-handed, and you can't have a weapon or shield being used in your other hand... it says nothing about it being a melee weapon.

Actually, it does, but only by reference.

Precise Strike (Ex): At 5th level, a duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, gaining an extra 1d6 damage added to her normal damage roll.

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

Actually, it does, but only by reference.

Actually, it does, but only by reference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD, Duelist
Precise Strike (Ex): At 5th level, a duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, gaining an extra 1d6 damage added to her normal damage roll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD, Equipment
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

It says " light or one-handed piercing weapon" under Duelist, NOT "Light or One-Handed Melee piercing Weapon" like the item desciption you listed, the key word there being MELEE. Like I said, I'm sure it's a typo and they MEANT melee, but technicly it doesn't SAY that.
You use one hand to throw a dagger, one hand to throw a dart, and one hand to fire a hand-crossbow.

You really like arguing with me, don't you Elvenshae?

 

[irdeggman]

It says " light or one-handed piercing weapon" under Duelist, NOT "Light or One-Handed Melee piercing Weapon" like the item desciption you listed, the key word there being MELEE. Like I said, I'm sure it's a typo and they MEANT melee, but technicly it doesn't SAY that.
You use one hand to throw a dagger, one hand to throw a dart, and one hand to fire a hand-crossbow.

You really like arguing with me, don't you Elvenshae?

Actually ranged weapons aren't classified as light or one-handed only melee weapons have that classificaton.

While a dagger is classified as a light weapon (that can be thrown) a dart is only classified as a "ranged weapon".

So the book didn't need to go into any more detail or explanation since only melee weapons have that classification.

from the SRD:

Light: A light weapon is easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

It says " light or one-handed piercing weapon" under Duelist, NOT "Light or One-Handed Melee piercing Weapon" like the item desciption you listed, the key word there being MELEE. Like I said, I'm sure it's a typo and they MEANT melee, but technicly it doesn't SAY that.

Like I said, it doesn't say it explicitly, it says it by reference.

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed are descriptions that apply only to melee weapons. Ergo, anything that refers to a light weapon is, by reference, a melee weapon.

You use one hand to throw a dagger, one hand to throw a dart, and one hand to fire a hand-crossbow.

Which is an interesting segueway. Take a look at the crossbow descriptions.

Crossbow, Hand: You can draw a hand crossbow back by hand. Loading a hand crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons.

Crossbow, Heavy: You draw a heavy crossbow back by turning a small winch. Loading a heavy crossbow is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

Normally, operating a heavy crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a –4 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a heavy crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two one-handed weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.

Crossbow, Light: You draw a light crossbow back by pulling a lever. Loading a light crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.

Crossbow, Repeating: The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand or fire a repeating crossbow in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size. However, you must fire the weapon with two hands in order to use the reloading lever, and you must use two hands to load a new case of bolts.

You'll notice that they do not state, "A light crossbow is a light weapon." They don't do this because "light weapon" can only apply to melee weapon. Instead, they specify, "you take penalties as if attacking with two light weapons."

You really like arguing with me, don't you Elvenshae?

Only when you're wrong.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

Actually ranged weapons aren't classified as light or one-handed only melee weapons have that classificaton.

While a dagger is classified as a light weapon (that can be thrown) a dart is only classified as a "ranged weapon".

So the book didn't need to go into any more detail or explanation since only melee weapons have that classification.

Light: A light weapon is easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls
from the SRD:

If the definition for "light weapon" clearly defined it as melee use only, then why would they go through the trouble of saying "Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon...", and clearly pointed out that this is for MELEE? (You don't get strength modifiers for a hand-crossbow.)
Similarly, "A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks ..." I don't think they'd go to the trouble of specificly singling out MELEE attacks if it couldn't ALSO be used for ranged. The only difference is, you don't ALWAYS add your strength bonus to ranged weapons... the weapon description will say if there is an exception to NOT adding your strength bonus.

All of this seems a bit too on the fuzzy side to say outright that if an item is called "light" or "single-handed" that it is automaticly referring to melee. You CAN fire a "light crossbow" as a Medium creature in one hand, and it WON'T count as a light weapon. On the other hand, you can use a hand-crossbow in an offhand and it WOULD count as a light weapon (for purposes of Two Weapon Fighting, etc.)


EDIT: I meant heavy crossbow instead of light

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

If the definition for "light weapon" clearly defined it as melee use only, then why would they go through the trouble of saying "Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon...", and clearly pointed out that this is for MELEE? (You don't get strength modifiers for a hand-crossbow.)

Because they go on to say ...

Light: ... Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only.

One-Handed: ... Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Two-Handed: ... Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

In other words, they specify it because they then go on to specify all the potential interactions between Strength bonus and the manner in which you are wielding your weapon.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

You CAN fire a "light crossbow" as a Medium creature in one hand, and it WON'T count as a light weapon.

Right (with your Edit).

On the other hand, you can use a hand-crossbow in an offhand and it WOULD count as a light weapon (for purposes of Two Weapon Fighting, etc.)

And the reason they need to specify, in the descriptions of each different kind of crossbow, which "flavor" of weapon they count as for TWF purposes is because, by themselves, RANGED WEAPONS ARE NEITHER LIGHT, ONE-HANDED, NOR TWO-HANDED.

Otherwise, they'd just say light crossbows are light weapons, which have an additional -2 penalty when fired in one hand.

They aren't light weapons, however; they are treated as light weapons for the purposes of particular bonuses and penalties.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

bah