Scrying - Does it have to be a problem spell?

[The Little Raven]

In certain cases (Scrying is a good example), the designers should be focusing on improving the DM.

One problem is that people have differing opinions on what makes a good DM, since we all have different playstyles. And then there's the guys that will resist outside influence on their style, which makes any designer-based attempts to "improve the DM" useless. It's best for them to focus their efforts on mechanics, primarily, since that's the most important element of the game itself (game meaning rules and such, not fluff).

 

[Lizard]

Yeah, because of the "Good DM" clause, you don't have to worry about your mechanics totally sucking, since you're assuming that the DM will fix them while playing! The very height of game design!

Uhm...isn't this what people keep telling me when I ask about problems with 4e?

"4e doesn't 'take the DM out of the equation' like 3e does!"

So when 3x requires DM control to make it work, it's because the rules suck.
But when 4e requires DM control to make it work, it's because it re-empowers the DM.

Got it.

 

[The Little Raven]

Uhm...isn't this what people keep telling me when I ask about problems with 4e?

Context.

My post is about the concept that game designers don't need to eliminate problems in their mechanics, because an "experienced DM" will be able to get around the problems, which is flawed at it's core. That isn't to say that game designers don't make mistakes which, then, need a DM to adjudicate them. If you can't figure out why that would be a flawed game design philosophy, then I dunno what to say.

 

[That One Guy]

Scry + teleport + true strike + diamond nightmare blade --> dead lich in 1 round is great fun, ONCE.

That is simultaneously the best and worst story ever.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Scry + teleport + true strike + diamond nightmare blade --> dead lich in 1 round is great fun, ONCE.

No offense, but that was one idiot of a lich to get ganked that easily. My PCs tried that against a derro savant a while back. They discovered the Greater Anticipate Teleport spell the hard way then got hit with 3 rounds of maximixed delayed blast fireballs (courtesty of his greater rod of maximise) before they even got to act. They did survive it though, barely. And to add insult to injury, they still didn't catch him.

Note you have to know where your are going, even for greater teleport. Scrying an area concealed by illusions will cause the attempts to teleport there to fail unless you know what the area actually looks like. Low-tech solutions work even better. Note lead sheeting blocks scrying and lead is very common and cheap.

Also, unless you can get hair or a personal possession you can't scry someone who you don't have an accurate description of.

Tzarevitch

 

[StarFyre]

It depends on the players

I think it all depends on the players style ....


For example, if they are the type who charge into rooms and want a campaign to = 1 fight after the other like WoW or something, sure..some spells and effects probably reduce their fun.

If they act part in the game world, pretending/acting as if it's real life..ie. role playing to the max and then treating battles for how deadly they should be, if they really did happen, it's a different story.

Making villains just as 'real' and with such depth takes more thinking.

I consider like, what would a 10000 year old Lich be wary of? teleport without errors/gates, scrying, etc....so i would create a logical reason, spell, item that the lich has acquired to try and protect from stuff like that.

There are times for the stories, that I would want such spells to be with the party,

Instead of removing them, if they use it in a situation I didn't plan for..good. they outsmarted me. if I plan stuff the way I envision it in real life, with villains who are supposed to have an INT of 25 or whatever, there are lots of combinations like that , that just won't work.

I harken back to the Molydeus in 2E where it could at will read thoughts of those around it.
The way I read that and used it in gameplay..you can't surprise it, you can't lie or cheat it, and you can't out tactic it...it knows what you are going to do...if it's in trouble, teleport.

All you can do is basically try to beat on it, and cast everything..you won't really surprise it..just try and overload it and stop it's teleport with whatever you can..hoping he isn't able t resist your counter, etc.

I think of bosses in the same way IF they are intelligent bosses and would thus have such powers or knowledge.

I guess cause i do lots of stuff with planar beings, such enemies always seem to be a lot more knowledgable than the party members, so combats come down to...players make ANY mistakes, they die. they have to be basically perfect for the best outcomes...

It's a very harsh way to play, expect the highest standards in roleplaying, puzzle solving (if any), and tactical combats (more akin to warhammer i guess in that respect) or they will die...

my players though like the extra challenge and seem to be having tons of fun....

Sanjay

 

[TwinBahamut]

I just want a game where things like Scry and Teleport exist, but it doesn't take powerful magic and/or the foreknowledge that someone is going to scry on you at a particular time to thwart it. I would be very happy indeed if the rituals for those abilities are written in such a way that any character with some intelligence and foresight can protect himself from the worst abuses of either, without resorting to lining his entire home with lead.

I just want a great Martial BBEG who doesn't need to rely on powerful magical minions in order to function in his role. I don't think that is too much to ask.

 

[breschau]

Alot of people have been talking about the "problem spells" of past editions. I've been thinking about scrying, and it occurred to me that the main problem with it is that it allowed you to scry on someone even if you had little to no information about them or links to them. If the new scrying ritual absolutely requires a link (clothing, hair, blood, etc) to the person, it shouldn't create any problems. If the DM doesn't want the players to scry the BBEG early in the story, he can simply withold the necessary objects from the players until he wants them to have that option.

To some degree that can easily lend itself to the DM pounding his fist on the table and yelling no. Unless there's no one from the same village, no one knows the big bad, no information about him, never attacked before, etc. The only way a reasonable DM can absolutely keep bits like that out of the hands of players, is to pull fiat.

Ex: if the big bad had a raiding party hit the village, there will be something physical left behind. Some scrap from a surviving peon that's back at the lair. Scry him, and you're in.

Scrying, telepathy, detect, locate object, and many other spells can flat out ruin any hope of a mystery. The DM has to perfectly navigate the issue to avoid giving too much away to the players, and avoid being a jerk by just saying no all night.

That's one of the issues in magical settings. With these kinds of spells available, any semi-intelligent PC is going to seek them out to make life easier. If the authorities don't use these types of spells on a regular basis, or don't hire someone with the spells, they're stupid. Sure, the criminals will have anti-scrying measures—if they're smart and capable—but there is some limit to that. The DM can't have every baddie the PCs go up against have those counter-measures without becoming a jerk.

If the DM flat-out refuses, that's lame. If the DM always makes the scrying useless, that's lame. If the baddies all have counters, that's lame. If the PCs can't use spells/rituals they have access to, that's lame. Same with the DM not allowing those spells. Point being that at some point, the PCs will get access to these and use them successfully, when that happens *poof* goes the intrigue.

These spells simply spoil any hope of a mystery style game. An old druid scrying spell had casting time of an hour. When ever the druid tried to use it, the last 5 minutes was cut short by the appearance of a "random" encounter. That's an a-hole move, sure. But, that's just about what DMs are reduced to if they hope to avoid their mysteries ruined.

This really is the no-win scenario territory for many a DM.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

I like the version of scrying in a certain series of fantasy novels: You can't try to scry anything you haven't physically seen, and anything around what/who you're scrying that you haven't seen is basically invisible.

For example, you can't scry the BBEG unless you've seen him before, even if you have a really good description. And if you scry your buddy in prison, unless you've seen the prison cell he's in, you can't actually tell that he's in a cell, or where. He's just somewhere you haven't seen, so you see him in a field of shadows or whatever.

True, that has some drawbacks (not the least of which is copyright infringement if printed in published rulebooks), such as not being able to use scrying to find new people/places, but it is a rather elegant way to handle info gained through scrying.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The problem is the scry SPELL + teleportation SPELL

Scrying RITUAL + teleportation RITUAL which does cost to much to use on a regular basis is fine.

Put in some RITUALS to defend against those spells at about the same level, and its a fine mechanic.

An adventure which is based on immeiate scry + teleport is no adventure...