Scrying - Does it have to be a problem spell?

[Ridley's Cohort]

But in certain cases, improving the rules isn't the only solution in the game designer's toolbox. In certain cases (Scrying is a good example), the designers should be focusing on improving the DM.

There are four ways to improve the performance of a DM:
(1) Give general advice on how to run the game, coaching on creating adventures and encounters, useful rules of thumb for dealing with problems on the fly, tips on speeding up play, etc.
(2) Provide material for campaigns or adventures -- the more ready out-of-the-box the better.
(3) Give useful tools to help the DM do duties more quickly, e.g. tools to quickly generate a fully statted out encounter.
(4) Do not leave landmines lying around in rules that can be accidentally stepped on and blow up the adventure, e.g. Scry + Buff + Teleport.

IMO, if game designers are actually serious about helping improve the DM, they will make a reasonable effort at all four fronts, and not make excuses why one or two items are not very important because Good DMs can deal.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

Mayor: "Oh, great heroes, help find my kidnapped daughter!! The titles/wealth/commissions you seek are yours if you do!!"
Wizard: "Of course, sir." *scries while the party rests and prepares*
Wizard: "Oh, HELLS! Guys, the mayor's daughter is hanging over a lava pit with eleven other sacrifices RIGHT NOW!"
Fighter: "What?"
Wizard: "There's a priest and he's chanting and it doesn't look good! There's about three Hezrous and four Glabrezus there in addition to the cultists! My Arcane knowledge tells me he's about one minute from completing the ritual! We gotta go NOW!!!"

Quoted for truth AWESOME.

 

[arscott]

There are four ways to improve the performance of a DM:
(1) Give general advice on how to run the game, coaching on creating adventures and encounters, useful rules of thumb for dealing with problems on the fly, tips on speeding up play, etc.
(2) Provide material for campaigns or adventures -- the more ready out-of-the-box the better.
(3) Give useful tools to help the DM do duties more quickly, e.g. tools to quickly generate a fully statted out encounter.
(4) Do not leave landmines lying around in rules that can be accidentally stepped on and blow up the adventure, e.g. Scry + Buff + Teleport.

IMO, if game designers are actually serious about helping improve the DM, they will make a reasonable effort at all four fronts, and not make excuses why one or two items are not very important because Good DMs can deal.

I think I sacrificed clarity for aesthetic of prose in my previous statement. I didn't mean to suggest that Scry/Buff/Teleport is best solved by giving the DM good advice. That's best solved, in my opinion, by nerfing some over-the-top buffs and making teleportation take longer.

My comments were in regards to Scrying, and divination spells in general. Such spells can give the DM headaches, because they provide the PCs with capabilities that he often doesn't account for in adventure design.

But Dungeons and Dragons is a game where people can do all sorts of fantastic things. Saying deciding to remove Speak with Dead from the PHB because it might trip up the DM violates the theme and setting of D&D. Instead, a better solution is to put a section in the DMG that give the DM advice on how to create adventures that won't get wrecked by Speak with Dead and other divination spells.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

But Dungeons and Dragons is a game where people can do all sorts of fantastic things. Saying deciding to remove Speak with Dead from the PHB because it might trip up the DM violates the theme and setting of D&D. Instead, a better solution is to put a section in the DMG that give the DM advice on how to create adventures that won't get wrecked by Speak with Dead and other divination spells.

I disagree. D&D is a game where you can do all sorts of fantastic things, true. However, any particular fantastic thing doesn't need to be possible. A game of D&D where everything is possible but speaking to to dead is still D&D. It just has one less option. And if that option ruins more games than it helps then it might be best to exclude it.

However, speaking to the dead is not really broken. It helps a lot, but it is controllable enough by the DM that it is just fine. It's easy to say "The target made its saving throw, it can lie" or "He didn't see his attacker because it was dark" and the like. I find most groups don't ask the right questions to figure out a situation anyways.

Scrye/Teleport was a big problem though. Essentially the only way to prevent it is to start coming up with rare exceptions that suddenly become common. I like to run a world where magic is common enough that the PCs can come across it and use it but not so common that everyone in the world knows the "standard" magic ways of finding them and has to plan weeks in advance in order to make sure all the pieces are in place in order to do anything evil.

"Alright, do we have an entire layer of lead around all the walls of the fortress? Do we have an Amulet of Proof Against Location and Detection for all the minions? Good. Now, remember, you must be wearing these at ALL times, even when you are sleeping. You know that any adventurer might be scrying on you at any time, day or night. What is that? They only protect against low level adventurers? Damn it. Well, let's hire an archmage in order to create us some new custom magic items to protect us better then. Once we have those created, we can finally kidnap the princess. Muhahaha."

Besides, it requires too much prep work for me to think of all that stuff. I'd prefer it if I could just come up with cheesy movie/tv show plots and be able to run them without having to pour over all the books to make sure there isn't a spell that defeats the entire plot.

 

[hong]

No offense, but that was one idiot of a lich to get ganked that easily.

You don't have to outsmart the lich. You just have to outsmart the DM. And with the six zillion layers of magic in 3E, even the best DM will trip up now and then.

Besides...

Scry + teleport + true strike + diamond nightmare blade --> dead lich in 1 round is GREAT FUN, once.

FIFY

 

[Ahglock]

I just want a game where things like Scry and Teleport exist, but it doesn't take powerful magic and/or the foreknowledge that someone is going to scry on you at a particular time to thwart it. I would be very happy indeed if the rituals for those abilities are written in such a way that any character with some intelligence and foresight can protect himself from the worst abuses of either, without resorting to lining his entire home with lead.

I just want a great Martial BBEG who doesn't need to rely on powerful magical minions in order to function in his role. I don't think that is too much to ask.

My thoughts exactly. I had no wreck the game problems with scry, buff, teleport in 3e. It was easily countered and handled in my games. My issue was virtually all the counters the rules provided were magical, which meant everyone had powerful magic items or spell casting lackeys. OK fine I can do that, but I don't like it.

 

[Ahglock]

I disagree. D&D is a game where you can do all sorts of fantastic things, true. However, any particular fantastic thing doesn't need to be possible. A game of D&D where everything is possible but speaking to to dead is still D&D. It just has one less option. And if that option ruins more games than it helps then it might be best to exclude it.

Sure, but where do you stop?

A lot of my ability to enjoy playing 4e will be based on where they stopped. Removing a option or two wont stop it form being fun, on the exaggerated side if you remove too many options and I then am playing a board game.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Sure, but where do you stop?

A lot of my ability to enjoy playing 4e will be based on where they stopped. Removing a option or two wont stop it form being fun, on the exaggerated side if you remove too many options and I then am playing a board game.

That's a good question.

The "Scry-Buff-Teleport" tactic seemed to be reduced in 4E by weakening the middle part - buffs seem to last no longer then one round. What happened to Scry and Teleport, we don't know yet.

A good indicator for "spells-to-remove" is: "Do they take away the excitement?" "Do they remove adventure options"
Scry-Buff-Teleport pretty much removes the excitement of the combat. Most monsters just won't survive this kind of "Alpha Strike". It leads to an anti-climatic encounter. There is some satisfaction gained from "good play", but it is pretty shallow. So, nerf this tactic.

Scry: Allows you to find information on a person. Doesn't seem to affect excitement, figuring out stuff can be interesting. There is a risk, however, it removes the excitement of a small "mini-adventure" where you find contacts. But if you limit the kind of information that can be gained by Scry, you're still pretty good.

Find the Path: Allows you to find any location. Hmm. Not really exciting. Seems pretty similar to Scry, in a way. But Scry is a little more exciting, since seeing a person is still not being there, and you need to use the information. Like Scry, it removes the "mini-adventure" of finding the location yourself. But it also removes stuff like finding traps and facing obstacles (since the part warns you of either and helps you overcoming it).
So, maybe it shouldn't really be a "fire & forget" spell, and more something more eloberate -maybe a Ritual?

Teleport: Allows you to reach any destination in no time. Pretty exciting, you can go wherever you want! But wait, it removes the overland-travel. That was pretty fun, and a lot of stuff could happen there. But then, if you don't have Teleport, you can't really have stories that cover wide areas, like an entire continent (at least not without a lot of handwaving of "you travel another 3 weeks, and you reach the cultists just in time to stop their world-domination ritual) . So, maybe it should be a ritual? Or is a high level spell enough, so that at lower levels, you can do all the overland-travel you want, and at high levels, you can do all the world-spanning adventures you want?


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