selling a system change

[ValhallaGH]

Who is more likley to run from a strage unearthly monstrosity a defensive option 4 or a fast hero 3/gunslinger 1? Herein lies my problem (real or imagined) it just seems that tougher characters will tend towards a more dnd philosophy of kill it before it kills us rather than run before it kills us.

Describe it differently. D&D heroes don't run because they aren't facing unknowable horrors from beyond nightmare. They're facing a big, red dragon. Powerful as it is, it's known and categorized.
Orcs? Big, strong, green warriors. Nothing unnatural or scary about them.
Goblins? Little, sneaky, cowardly murderers. Nothing unnatural or terror inducing about them.
Hydra? Where's the Improved Sunder / Cleave monkey? Or the guy that hits things insanely hard?
Mind Flayers? Nasty but squishy. Hit them hard and you'll be fine.

The secret to horror is secrets. You can make rules to scare characters, that's not a problem, but even then the players are still going to have their characters charge in if they can. With secrets and descriptions that confuse more than they explain, you can put fright into the players so that their characters will run away, even though they could easily win.

You want horror? Describe things with just enough detail to let the players' imaginations fill in the rest with their worst nightmares. Ensure that the familiar is not familiar, by giving monsters templates, abilities and deformities that the players don't know and don't understand (yet). The unknown puts the terror of the boogey man into people; use that and you can easily make super heroes run away, wetting themselves, without ever bringing in a single fear/terror/insanity game mechanic, because you scared the player that controls the hero.

 

[Psion]

Who is more likley to run from a strage unearthly monstrosity a defensive option 4 or a fast hero 3/gunslinger 1? Herein lies my problem (real or imagined) it just seems that tougher characters will tend towards a more dnd philosophy of kill it before it kills us rather than run before it kills us.

I think after a few messy character deaths, that will be set right.

Plus, if that's your concern, I'll re-emphasize the suggestion to play ordinaries, or at least, drop advanced classes.

 

[Flynn]

I think after a few messy character deaths, that will be set right.

Plus, if that's your concern, I'll re-emphasize the suggestion to play ordinaries, or at least, drop advanced classes.

Try Grim Tales. It only has the base classes, and there's a great horror mechanic that can game mechanically reinforce the desire of the normal person to run away if the PCs won't roleplay it.

Now that that's out of my system, I second the option of using just the base classes from D20 Modern, and perhaps you could also implement a horror check mechanic. I think there's one in WOTC's Unearthed Arcana (or at least the sanity mechanic from CoC), and there's also this one:
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=4034&

Hope this helps,
Flynn

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Who is more likley to run from a strage unearthly monstrosity a defensive option 4 or a fast hero 3/gunslinger 1? Herein lies my problem (real or imagined) it just seems that tougher characters will tend towards a more dnd philosophy of kill it before it kills us rather than run before it kills us.

The one who saw his pal, a Tough 3/Bodyguard 1, get devoured by the strange unearthly monstrosity's hundred non-euclidean maws in a single round. The one who went hopelessly insane just *seeing* the strange unearthly monstrosity.

With that said, a Fast 3/Gunslinger 1 may not be ill-served trying to kill it before it kills him. Lovecraft's characters were mostly academics, not physical types; both their existential horror at the reality of the universe and their relative inability to fight Mythos creatures as physical threats came largely from the fact they were thinkers more than doers. A Fast 3/Gunslinger 1 might be well served to try to fight a moderately powerful Mythos creature; would a Smart 4? Probably not.

When physical characters came to grips with the mythos, they usually did confront it head-on; sometimes they won (sometimes the academics did, too), although never without cost. Robert E. Howard also wrote stories in Lovecraft's shared universe, including his Conan stories; the legendary barbarian sometimes encountered horros of the Outer Dark too grim for him to face and fled, but as often he prevailed by confronting them physically.

You pretty much have four types of Mythos creatures: unnerving but ultimately mortal and defeatable enemies (ghouls, deep ones), powerful monsters that must either be run from or fought in numbers (formless spawn, cthonians), great old ones that might be significantly challenged by strategic weapons but are far beyond mortals' ability to fight head-on (Cthulhu, Hastur), and true gods that cannot be defeated no matter what (Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Shub-Niggurath and probably Nyarlathotep). Against the first two categories, physical force is not necessarily an inappropriate response, although it carries with it a real risk of losing and dying horribly. Against the third, even 20th level d20 Modern PCs have no real chance (the d20 CoC Great Old Ones are all CR 20+ in D&D terms, and the difference between D&D and d20 Modern PCs only grows as you get to higher levels). Against the fourth, no amount of power will suffice; Azathoth's body is literally the very substance of the universe, for example.

 

[SWBaxter]

Who is more likley to run from a strage unearthly monstrosity a defensive option 4 or a fast hero 3/gunslinger 1? Herein lies my problem (real or imagined) it just seems that tougher characters will tend towards a more dnd philosophy of kill it before it kills us rather than run before it kills us.

Well, here's the secret to running Call of Cthulhu: you need buy-in from the players. They have to want to play characters who, when they first confront something unnatural, are more likely to say "I have no idea what this is, I'd better avoid it" than "Ooh, I bet it's CR4, if I kill it I'll get enough XP to level up!" If the players are thinking the latter, no ruleset is going to help much, while if they're thinking the former, you can use Iron Heroes and still get a game that feels like Lovecraft's stories.

It helps to show them that it's OK to run. If the fast hero 3/gunslinger 1 seems a critter walk through a hail of bullets and shred one ganger while two more are reduced to gibbering terror from looking into its soulless eyes, he'll probably realize that the direct approach isn't going to work. And if he doesn't, that's why backup characters are a good idea.

 

[Sir Brennen]

There's some CoC/D20 Modern goodness at the following site as well:
http://members.aol.com/CountryGrrlHere/cthulhumod.html

I found that page when I was planning on starting my Cthulhu game. Had a few questions and suggestions for the author that I put on Monte Cook's CoC d20 Forum here:

http://p222.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm20.showMessage?topicID=682.topic

Seems the author hadn't actually used the d20 Modern version in actual play, so I was basically going to go with having the PCs be Ordinaries, but with class bonus feats every five levels. No other class feats, talents or advanced classes.

Alas, this was never playtested either, as I got the opportunity to playtest a new edition of Chill. However, enough issues came up with the playtest rules that we finally just switched over to the original CoC BRP :\