Selling items : illogical rule ?

[keterys]

Much like _real_ dual wielding is done by Rangers, Wizards get cantrips, clerics turn undead, etc... the ability to sell at higher price is restricted to those with the Merchant class.

PCs who want that class instead could have really crappy powers, but sell better.

Of course, some might want to multiclass with it... but maybe that'd be fine too

 

[DM_Blake]

Um, no it doesnt. I don't think you've read the rules clearly.

The 4E magic item parcel system insures that for your level you WILL have the required static items. If you're a 1st level fighter, the system will insure you GET that +1 halberd due to the fact that you FIND magic items of higher value.

At level 2, your DM can randomly roll out a +2 bardiche and the point of the system is to force the player to decide, "Do I really want the +1 halberd or keep the +2 bardiche".

Remember, he doesn't NEED the +2 weapon until level 5 at the earliest and level 15 at the latest.

What it does do is actually make magical items WORTh something when found

(You're argument basically means that the DM might as well put GP instead of magical items as treasure)

What I want and what I need are two different things.

Sure, I don't need a +2 weapon immediately. Sure I could wait until level 15 for it. But it's not likely I will want to wait that long.

Especially if I have a +2 weapon I am lugging around that I can't or won't use. If I'm specced to be good with certain weapons, but the only +2 weapon I have is something else, then I'm better of using the weapons I'm specced for, even if they're only +1.

But when I go to town, and find a guy selling a +2 version of my favorite weapon, and I say "hey, I'll trade you my +2 weapon for the +2 weapon you're selling" and he says "no way, man, your +2 weapon is only worth 20% of the value of my +2 weapon" - that's when the 4e buying/selling model gets a little weird.

Essentially, the 4e rules mean I can never realistically rely on selling stuff I find but don't want, or stuff I used to want but now I don't want it any more (maybe I upgraded).

Which might even be OK in a world where the DM hand-picks every magic item I find to suit my character.

But what about the DM who buys H1, or H2, H3, P1, or any other published adventure and plays it as written? Now we're all screwed.

When my level 15 character goes off to join your game, and I have a couple crummy lowbie items because my DM only used published modules that never had any items I would use in them (everything I use I bought after selling the useless junk for 20% of its value), he won't be really compatible with the rest of your players' characters who have useful level 15 (or higher) items that you hand-picked for them.

This kind of inequality could happen within a single group with just one DM. Suppose the cleric gets a nice pair of boots one dungeon, and a nice belt in another dungeon, a nice mace in a 3rd dungeon, and a nice cloak in a 4th dungeon, and a nice amulet in a 5th dungeon. But in the same party, a fighter got 5 fairly comparable weapons. They each have 5 items, but the cleric could use all of his items in a single fight, while the fighter will just pick one to use all fight long. And that poor fighter has no option to go to town and sell 4 of them for some new stuff - heck, even selling all 4, he won't have enough cash to buy even ONE new item.

Sure, that would be bad DMing.

But not all DMs are good.

And even good DMs could find themselves in weird moments, like when a perfectly outfitted character has a dozen beautifully hand-picked items, but then he retrains some sbilities and finds those items are useless to him and wants to sell them, or trade them, for different items - now he's screwed by the 20% rule.

Wouldn't it just be better to have a buy/sell rule that doesn't force all characters and all DMs into a single paradigm of having the DM always hand-pick the items for each player and of having those players guarantee to always contstruct their character so that thos hand-picked items remain useful to them?

 

[Wormwood]

The point of having PCs able to sell found magic items is to allow them to choose between a GM-selected magic item that might not be exactly what they want and a lesser-powered item that meshes better with their character concept.

Exactly.

I prefer this system to the previous one, which required me to work harder for less benefit.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

The way it is ruled in the rulebook is just stupid. I want more options than sell everything for 1/5th its value. I do think we will be getting a crafting and economics book one way or another. There is CLEARLY a demand for one.

Sounds like you are on to something... why dont you write one, publish it...and I will pay about 1/5 the market price


But seriously. The 4e economic model isn't economics. Its about hand-wave playability in the assumed setting. DM's can alter that for players interested in spending game time bargaining and/or sitting in a stall waiting for some adventurer to come by that just needs that +2 back scratcher...

I like the rule because it makes finding or creating a weapon the better option than going to town...and doesn't provide a huge monetary boost to looters of dead PCs.

 

[Goumindong]

Now you are splitting hairs. I can be a charismatic Romeo who never has a cold bed while having a character with 10 charisma, or I can be a social misfit who does not understand girls with a character with a charisma of 20. What player/character combination should get the girl? The one with real knowledge, and role-playing skills, or the clueless wonder who has the stats to back it up?

I vote for the 20 charisma character myself.

No, you're strawmanning.

Its harder to roleplay mental stats higher than your own, congratulations. Now, when figuring out whether or not you do, you run a skill challenge. If your character succeeds you succeed.

Now, you want to be a master trader, great, you get to run the skill challenges.

Notice how it all comes down to "run the skill challenges"?

There are different forms of salesmen. You have charismatic folks who can just sell stuff. You have charismatic folks who meet folks who like to buy stuff from charismatic folks. You have intelligent folks who study the economy. And you have wise folks who notice good deals when they see them.

My cousin is a charismatic guy who can just sell stuff. He knows how to read people. It is amazing, and he makes oodles of money doing it. He gets the cars, houses, and women. It is effortless to him. I would say he had high charisma, the diplomacy skill, and one or more feats dealing with it.

Great, so run a skill challenge. And ask your cousin just how long it would take him to sell, say a set of jewelry for worth 1 million dollars.

Or it could be a dice roll on a chart.

Or it could be a skill challenge. I can understand if you don't want to role play and just want the game to tell you what happens outside of combat without you doing anything. But that game is not D&D. That game is progress quest.

The way it is ruled in the rulebook is just stupid. I want more options than sell everything for 1/5th its value. I do think we will be getting a crafting and economics book one way or another. There is CLEARLY a demand for one.

No, its not, and i've explained to you why its not stupid. I understand that you don't know what is going on when someone talks about economics, but you're wrong.

Your option is "sell it fast and ignore it" or "run a skill challenge/quest to do so"

Actually I like to use this analogy. The you must sell for 20% of the base cost to craft an item is like saying one many not think about ecology when placing monsters. Sure you can play, and many do, without a thought to ecology, but making it a rule that one cannot think about ecology will just piss some folks off.

No, its like saying you, with no economic training, without an understanding of what economics is, and without a clue about whether or not its makes the game more or less fun is complaining that the guys who made the game decided what the economy of the game would be like.

You can think about ecology all you like, but you are here wanting goblins to be solitary creatures and we are here telling you that all of that is up to your DM, but the base rules set them as social creatures because its better for the game and makes more sense ecologically.

And that is just not true. I buy and sell things all the time for differing amounts. I wish I could find a fool to buy something for 20% of what it costs to build a house (including the land and stuff), and then sell it for the market rate!

Wait, so your "proof" against the definition of value is "i buy and sell stuff and i can't find something to buy for 20% in this specific market"

Umm sounds like a value to me. The amount you can get for something is its value. Since we have a rule-book with the value in print it should be obvious. That is where the paradox comes in. Something is worth X, and that same thing is worth X * 0.2.

There is value on each side of the equation. There is value to the seller and value to the buyer. Each one will buy or sell when the value of the item either exceeds what they are paying or receiving. Each actor has to account for a number of factors that are not just the value of the item(which modify the value of the item)

This is very very very basic trade theory. Go learn it.

 

[darkrose50]

Now it becomes clear that you have no clue what supply and demand are.

How absurd of you.

Here is the first definition for supply and demand I found on Google, and it seems just fine.

“The economic theory of market value where price is determined by the interaction of sellers and buyers to reach an equilibrium price which both are willing to accept.”


Item X has a value listed in the book as being 100% of its cost to craft, and then goes on to say that you can only sell X for ONLY 20% of its cost to craft.

This is supply and demand how now? It is you, that do not seem to understand supply and demand.

Supply is a line composed of all of the relative values of all the people in the land for the point at which they will sell some quantity of that item. Demand is the same, except it is the buy value.

The cost of an item is made up of supply and demand. The exception to the rule would be what I term the “marble jewel incrusted toilet” effect. Some items cost more to make than they have a demand for.

Everything, it would seem, has the “marble jewel incrusted toilet” effect in D&D. It should be the exception to the rule, rather than the rule.

And this is stupid.

Just because there is a high demand does not mean that people with a lot of gold want it. People will want what they want and are only allowed more as their ability increases.

Do enlighten me. The demand part of the demand for X comes from people who demand said item? Wow.

Often times there is varying demands across different demographics. And merchants will partake in price discrimination in order to fully exploit that(E.G. kids prices at movie theaters). Now, demand for magic items might be very high among adventurers, and supply of magic items very low. And if demand for magic items is very low outside of adventurers then buyers, being intelligent are going to offer very low for buy prices and very high for sell prices.

Give me an example where you can not buy item X for 20% of its value, must pay 100% of the value for item X, and can not sell item X for anything but 20% of its value.

Why? Because they can expect to get high prices from adventurers when adventurers are not expected to meet each other often and set up bazaars for trade. And only the adventurers need the items, so when those items become dead weight then they will have to sell them at a much diminished price from what they were previously valued.

I think it is preposterous to conclude that adventures are economic imbeciles unable to sell an item for anything other than 20% of the cost required to make it.
I think it is preposterous to conclude that only adventures would want magical items.
I think it is preposterous to conclude that adventures don’t know other adventures, or how to locate them.
I think it is preposterous to conclude that adventures cant hire an agent, got to an auction house, or use there intellect to find a buyer.

Feudalism is a political system not an economic system. The guilds churches, gentry, nobles, and royalty might not need the items you are selling and are likely to invest in more prudent things, like castles, mercenaries, and minions. Would you rather have a +4 flaming sword or would you rather have 1000 level 5 minions, lieutenants, a castle, and all the necessary stuff needed to run said castle.

Say what?

The first definition for feudalism I googled says

“Tiered class system of medieval Europe in which land owned by someone of higher status was lived on and worked by someone of lower status in return for loyal service. The monarch was at the top of the pyramid, the peasants at the bottom. Feudalism began on the Continent as far back as the 8th century as a means of ensuring protection for powerful rulers against other powerful rulers. During the Middle Ages, certain provinces or countries recognised other kings as their feudal overlords.”

Sounds like a wealth system to me. Who the heck owns land that is worked by others that is not wealthy. The rule, not the exception to the rule is that the folks on top have the wealth.

Would the church not spend it on charity? Take the Holy Roman Empire as a great example. There was only one church in the largest city in the world that had the wealth that you are describing and that city would be comparable to tiefling city that fell to the dragonborn ages ago. Guilds buy power and influence, merchants only want something they can sell (and they can't sell these easily to all the things you listed)

Selling an item may take time. But it is an option to take that time. I would think a roll every time period would be fair. Modified by the seller in question, his skill, and feats.

I still do not think that selling magical armor, weaponry, or health fortifying items would be hard in a feudalistic economy.

No, its not silly, illogical, and stupid. Low volume/turnover, high transaction cost goods often have large differences between buy and sell price. If you need an economic book there are plenty that can satisfy your thirst. I like this one

I don’t think magical items would qualify as low volume/turnover as a whole. I don’t think everything qualifies as low volume/turnover as a whole. Some may, not all. I am sure you agree with me that selling everything for 20% of its crafting cost is silly.

Then once you know what is happening all you have to do is role play it. I know this might seem strange, 4e being a role playing game and all, but its what I suggest.

The sell everything for 20% of its crafting cost is a silly rule that ruins things for folks who care about crafting or economics. And it’s dumb.

 

[Goumindong]

Yes they do. Or rather, they blow the 50gp to teleport to the "trade zone" that covers items of the appropriate value range and pay maybe 5% of the item value to list it. If they are *really* lazy, they sell/order the item through a part-time wizard who periodically checks into the wizard-selling-network via Sending Stone to update his for-sale/to buy list. Remember, 4e magic items have very few characteristics. You don't need a complicated database to store requests/offers.

They get there are there are three people. One offering 20% of the market price, one who wants to buy a +2 bloody leather armor of bleating and another one who will create a magic item at market price +10% mark up.

Now you could set it up to sell by consignment but... that is a skill challenge and its going to take time...

Oh wait, what have we been saying all this time?

 

[keterys]

... absurd
And this is stupid.
preposterous
imbeciles
preposterous
preposterous
preposterous
silly.
silly
And it’s dumb.

I think you're taking this way too seriously. It's a game with rules to help the game. If you don't like them, change them.

For example, take some of the money in theory you hand out as treasure parcels. Let people sell magic items at a higher price but take the extra by drawing on those. They run out of buyers if they run out of parcels.

Fits the rest of the game and is a quick solution.

 

[Blair Goatsblood]

IRL it seems that oftentimes non-mercantile people selling objects or goods will often get 20% of retail. Think of pawnshops, garage sales, used CD stores.

In our world, I'm sure 20% is more realistic than higher values in approximating what return our world's 'adventurers,' mercenaries, pirates, criminals, etc., would get for selling a bunch of guns, body armor, ammunition, etc. they got off of some enemies that they killed.

 

[Kraydak]

They get there are there are three people. One offering 20% of the market price, one who wants to buy a +2 bloody leather armor of bleating and another one who will create a magic item at market price +10% mark up.

Now you could set it up to sell by consignment but... that is a skill challenge and its going to take time...

Oh wait, what have we been saying all this time?

So, you are assuming that there are a mere handful of (say, Heroic Tier) adventurers covering an *entire world*. Because an *entire world* is smaller than the range on Linked Portal, and you will only have a mere three people in a "trade zone" if you have a mere handful of heroic tier adventurers in the feeding area of the trading zone.

As a side note, Linked Portal's effect on a game world make 3e's Teleport look positively tame: infinite distance+absurdly high cargo limit+negligible per/day casting limit=teh awesome.