Sexism in D&D and on ENWorld (now with SOLUTIONS!)

[Krensky]

Our language definitely does contain a bias; just look at the gender specific derogatory words we use. The female ones tend to be harsher ones than the ones for men (I will confess I actually can't think of any male specific ones at all at the moment but for women, "whore" is the only one I think that I can get away with mentioning on these boards). While this can reflect a bias in our society it also show the very male dominated roots of our culture. to a degree this is a problem as it keeps certain attitudes alive but there are other issues that should probably be addressed first as they are easier then having everyone relearn a language.

You're looking at the wrong end.

Derogatory phrase describing women tend to be harsher not because of any inherent value in the words (words don't have any inherent offensiveness). They are harsher because culturally it is more acceptable to insult a man then to offend a lady. The difference is further emphasized because insulting and derogatory phrases for men have become more commonly used, or the societal and cultural elements that made them deadly insults have been rejected or forgotten. Calling someone a bastard, a coward, a son of a..., a cuckold etc all used to be sufficient excuse for someone to beat you to a pulp.

Similarly, whether people like it or not 'man' is both masculine and neutral in gender. In Old English wer was masculine, wyf was feminine, and man neutral. Waepman and wyfman were also used. Eventually wer and waepman fell out of use in favor of using man for both masculine and neutral and wyfman completely supplanted wyf as the feminine term and wyf evolved into wife.

So if you want to correct the 'gender bias' in English, you need to dig a long, long way back. Easier to address actual inequalitiy then percieved inequality.

In a game context, follow the DMG II's advice and only worry about it is someone is offended. When playing NPCs focus on social class and world experience for reactions and let players play their characters as they wish, as long as they don't offend anyone else at the table.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You're looking at the wrong end.

Derogatory phrase describing women tend to be harsher not because of any inherent value in the words (words don't have any inherent offensiveness). They are harsher because culturally it is more acceptable to insult a man then to offend a lady. The difference is further emphasized because insulting and derogatory phrases for men have become more commonly used, or the societal and cultural elements that made them deadly insults have been rejected or forgotten. Calling someone a bastard, a coward, a son of a..., a cuckold etc all used to be sufficient excuse for someone to beat you to a pulp.

And in addition, there is that added implied threat of potential violence intrinsic in our higher muscle mass, etc., that exists when a man insults a woman (or really, anyone smaller than the speaker) that simply doesn't exist in the reverse.

IOW, there's that whole implied "I just insulted you, what are you going to do now?" directed at the physically smaller person.

Not that there aren't women who aren't capable of defending themselves- that's been proven to me both statistically AND anecdotally (when a woman of my acquaintance chased her firearm-wielding hubby with a chainsaw, shortly before their divorce).

Honestly, I don't know how this focus on language structure got any traction in the first place. One of my law profs- Zipporah Wiseman ( http://www.utexas.edu/law/faculty/profile.php?id=zwiseman )- pretty much ignored that in her seminars on women's legal issues. It just didn't seem to matter to her.

 

[S'mon]

We can only treat a fraction of those symptoms through D&D and ENworld.
To truly eradicate sexism we'd have to start with people's education from a young age.

Not to mention genetic engineering.

 

[kolikeos]

Not to mention genetic engineering.

I'm not sure what you meant by that.
To clarify what I meant: behavior is the result of education, whether it's formal or just what you hear from the ones around you. Sexist behavior is what we are objecting to in this thread. If we change the language or enforce equal wages, we will only be dealing with the effects of this behavior.

 

[Umbran]

If we change the language or enforce equal wages, we will only be dealing with the effects of this behavior.

The phrase that comes to mind is ironic, given that the character who spoke it was a misogynistic jerk. However, it speaks to the point. To quote Captain Hammer:

"It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds."

 

[Timeboxer]

To clarify what I meant: behavior is the result of education, whether it's formal or just what you hear from the ones around you. Sexist behavior is what we are objecting to in this thread. If we change the language or enforce equal wages, we will only be dealing with the effects of this behavior.

Please see bolded text.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Derogatory phrase describing women tend to be harsher not because of any inherent value in the words (words don't have any inherent offensiveness). They are harsher because culturally it is more acceptable to insult a man then to offend a lady. The difference is further emphasized because insulting and derogatory phrases for men have become more commonly used, or the societal and cultural elements that made them deadly insults have been rejected or forgotten. Calling someone a bastard, a coward, a son of a..., a cuckold etc all used to be sufficient excuse for someone to beat you to a pulp.

This is interesting, but not entirely true.

Which is worse, calling a man a "bastard" or calling a man a "bitch"? (And let's not even get into the C-word.)

The word matters. And the words that are the biggest insults for men are the words that imply they are womanish.

Language matters, in many different ways, and claiming it doesn't matter is a very common tactic, both among those who honestly believe it and among those who know better (but want to dismiss it). And it's shocking, I know, but these people -- both groups -- are pretty much always men.

 

[kolikeos]

Please see bolded text.

Am I to understand that the language we hear around us is part of our education? I agree. It would seem then that language is not only a symptom but also part of the cause; which leads me to believe that watching one’s language is not such a waste of time as others here make it out to be.
If you meant something else then please clarify.

 

[Krensky]

Which is worse, calling a man a "bastard" or calling a man a "bitch"? (And let's not even get into the C-word.)

The word matters. And the words that are the biggest insults for men are the words that imply they are womanish.

But are those words really on the same place on the insult scale? And who using them? What is the context and the subtext?

A woman calling another woman a bitch in a friendly matter is a completely different thing from a man calling her one in anger. Reversed, me calling one of my old college friends a bastard in an endearing fashion is completely different then a woman doing so in anger.

And once again, we come back to my point that a man insulting a woman is worse then him insulting another man because insulting women is less socially acceptable.

As for the nature, most of the 'masculine' insults call in to question parentage and masculinity (wehter directly, by implying he's subservient to the women in his life, or unable to satisfy her need and desires - physical or otherwise) and those that don't deal with his inability to fit into the social heirarchy and belong to the Although interestingly some of the historically strongest ones deal with the insultee's matriline. Son of a bitch (which is a toss up if it was the original yo momma insult, or a round about way of calling a man a dog), bastard (which implies your mother was of loose virtue), son of a whore, etc. Insulting a man's mother is traditionally a far faster route to a broken nose then insulting his father.

Ancedotally, I've seen more similar resonses to insulting a woman's father or family in general rather then her mother, although I admit I do not know any standard insults of this fashion. Again, I suggest this is due to it being far less acceptable for a man to insult a woman and that women, again anecdotally, tend to be more subtle and creative in their insults to other women then men are to other men.

As for the C-word, it's equivalent would be the other c-word, but neither is always derogitory in use or nature.

 

[Ariosto]

What if the kung fu class were called the nun?

(Maybe this time, WotC will go for "martial artist".)