D&D (2024) Sharp shooter/Great Weapon Mastery

[Chaosmancer]

Who said anything about Bards taking it? They can, but so can other classes. Rangers can take it now. Presumably, so can Paladins. They couldn't do that before without taking a specific fighting style. This is a buff to those classes.

I mentioned bards because they were the first class I thought of.

But, well, in a purely technical sense you would be correct. It is a buff that Rangers can take cantrips. But that buff isn't dependent on them not nerfing Guidance into the ground.

This is like saying that if they reduced the Greataxe to a d10 weapon, but allowed wizards to use it, its a buff. Sure, the wizard couldn't use a greataxe before, but the Greataxe still got nerfed. They are two different things.

It's not a "once a day spell". It's a "once a day per creature". If you have infinite people, you can cast it an infinite amount of times a day (well, 14,400 times a day if you somehow cast it endlessly for the whole day, but that's neither here nor there).

And so it can be cast... what? 3 times in a party of four?

The problem with this logic is that there is no scenario where you ever use this on more than 10 people. Not only would each person have to be trying on a different six second round (because if they all tried at once, you can only use one reaction) but you'd never have that many NPCs attempting an important skill roll.

Additionally, most games don't have multiple people attempting important skill checks. You have the "expert" who handles most of the skills. And since they are handling the most skills, they are also going to be more likely to tell the caster to NOT cast guidance on them, because that skill check "isn't important enough" to warrant their one use of guidance. Because they only can benefit from it once, so it has to be used on an important check.

This also removes the ability to use Guidance during fun RP moments, because that would remove it from being used when needed. And of course, "when needed" the check is going to succeed. so they don't get to use it then either.

I'd be okay with limiting it to once per short rest per creature. But I don't see any problem with limiting it to once per day per creature. It's still a good cantrip. It doesn't take spell slots, can cause a creature to avoid failing an important ability check as a reaction, and isn't as spammable as it used to be.

I'm flabbergasted you can't see the problems with this.

Let's give yet another issue with it. The creature fails the roll by 4. Do you cast Guidance? You have a 75% chance of wasting it, because only a roll of 4 could make the roll a success, but even if the spell doesn't lead to you succeeding, it is still wasted. How often are people going to roll 1's on guidance, wasting their only daily chance to use it?

I get spamming it was an issue, I didn't think it was a big issue, and I'd rather it be removed from the game than be made this useless and anemic.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That first sentence suggests a misunderstanding of the spell, whereas the second sentence seems to suggest you do understand it, so I'm not sure where you are.

Also, you do realize don't you that it's now a reaction spell? As in, you only cast it when somebody has failed, specifically when somebody has failed by 4 or less. Since that only happens about 1/5 of the time, you'd have to cast the old version 5 times to make it worth one of the new ones. Across 4 party members, that makes it equivalent to spamming the old one 20 times, without the nuisance of having the cleric yell "I cast guidance!" 20 times.

Vast, vast, vast improvement.

YMMV.

EDIT: And as the previous poster just said while I was typing, yes a short rest would be fine, too. But even on a long rest the new version is great. I actually stopped taking guidance because it gets so annoying, but with this change I'll start using it again.

Yes, I understand how the spell works. But I'm looking at how it interacts with a single player. Because as I pointed out, you often don't have every single player making skill checks that are important.

And the thing is, the "vast, vast improvement" of making it a reaction is something I like. That is a great usage for it, it prevents it from breaking concentration and it limits the spam. It is a wonderful change that does vastly improve the ability for avoiding the nuisance problems of it.

None of that is taken away by allowing it to remain a cantrip, instead of this psuedo-daily ability where you have to consider if the Rogue failing to unlock this door is worth using guidance on, because he might later fail a hide check that would be more important, and you can only guidance the rogue once per day. I'd strongly fight to keep it a reaction, that is a good change. But it isn't a good enough change to warrant kneecapping the ability by making it so limited.

Keep the reaction, change it back to being able to be used at-will, with no restiction on the number of times people benefit, and I think we have a better and less aggravating version of what we had before.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Over the past 8 years I've yet to see ANY of my players use Minor Illusion more than like a half-dozen times in any entire campaign... let alone use it multiple times per in-game day.

So I understand conceptually what you are talking about... I just think the example you use does not actually hold the weight you were trying to give it.

Maybe not for you, I've seen people spamming minor illusion constantly. Especially when I was in the group with the guy who believed in the "ultimate cover" of minor illusion himself into a fog cloud.

The biggest use for it I've seen spammed is actually the audible part, which involved a lot of creative usage.

 

[tetrasodium]

I mentioned bards because they were the first class I thought of.

But, well, in a purely technical sense you would be correct. It is a buff that Rangers can take cantrips. But that buff isn't dependent on them not nerfing Guidance into the ground.

This is like saying that if they reduced the Greataxe to a d10 weapon, but allowed wizards to use it, its a buff. Sure, the wizard couldn't use a greataxe before, but the Greataxe still got nerfed. They are two different things.



And so it can be cast... what? 3 times in a party of four?

The problem with this logic is that there is no scenario where you ever use this on more than 10 people. Not only would each person have to be trying on a different six second round (because if they all tried at once, you can only use one reaction) but you'd never have that many NPCs attempting an important skill roll.

Additionally, most games don't have multiple people attempting important skill checks. You have the "expert" who handles most of the skills. And since they are handling the most skills, they are also going to be more likely to tell the caster to NOT cast guidance on them, because that skill check "isn't important enough" to warrant their one use of guidance. Because they only can benefit from it once, so it has to be used on an important check.

This also removes the ability to use Guidance during fun RP moments, because that would remove it from being used when needed. And of course, "when needed" the check is going to succeed. so they don't get to use it then either.



I'm flabbergasted you can't see the problems with this.

Let's give yet another issue with it. The creature fails the roll by 4. Do you cast Guidance? You have a 75% chance of wasting it, because only a roll of 4 could make the roll a success, but even if the spell doesn't lead to you succeeding, it is still wasted. How often are people going to roll 1's on guidance, wasting their only daily chance to use it?

I get spamming it was an issue, I didn't think it was a big issue, and I'd rather it be removed from the game than be made this useless and anemic.

I have 5 players, that's 5 times unless the caster is unable to target themselves with guidance. Also 5e's overly compressed skill system is extremely relevant since nearly any check of note is probably going to be a skill that multiple characters have.

 

[OB1]

I strongly suspect that we will see a -xPB to hit/ +2xPB to damage half feat in the Warriors group.

I also suspect that Warriors big feature is going to be getting extra feats, maybe as many as 1 every odd level, but that they must come from the Warrior's Feat list (so no grabbing the ASI feat with these). That would go a long way to increasing the Warrior group's effectiveness and versatility in all pillars.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I think Guidance being nerfed is great, but I don't quite like the result. Tracking who's had it seems like a bit of a pain.

Perhaps they should just make it useable Prof Times per Short Rest.

Still nerfed. Guidance Player can track it on their own in the same way they track their other resources.

The only problem I see with that is is goes a bit against how cantrips are supposed to be useable "at-will", but I dunno, I think it works.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I get spamming it was an issue, I didn't think it was a big issue, and I'd rather it be removed from the game than be made this useless and anemic.

Well, fortunately you can pretend it has been removed from the game!

One tweak would be to only allow it turn a failure into a success once per day per character. So that you don't have to worry about "wasting it" on a -4 miss; you can spam it until it succeeds.

And/or add it to the "resets on initiative" list. Although that's a little odd because it's not so much a combat ability. Still, could work.

However, I suspect they'll actually try another solution entirely, just because tracking "who has had it today?" will turn out to be a nuisance.

 

[Stalker0]

Yes, since disadvantage is a bigger debuff than -2. Plus Disadvantage is great Crit protection, while this is useless against a crit (unless they change the crit rules further than they have indicated).

Well they have actually quite a bit. From teh first playtest, PCs don't take crits from monsters. So....no need for crit protection.

 

[Mort]

Well they have actually quite a bit. From teh first playtest, PCs don't take crits from monsters. So....no need for crit protection.

I thought it was indicated that monster crits would instead have interesting effects? Which would still mean crit protection is necessary (and maybe even better).

Unless they meant that monster crits were eliminated to make room for interesting effects. In which case sure. Thigh they have to figure out a another effect for Adamantine then.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I have 5 players, that's 5 times unless the caster is unable to target themselves with guidance. Also 5e's overly compressed skill system is extremely relevant since nearly any check of note is probably going to be a skill that multiple characters have.

Sorry, I don't see how the skill system being "compressed" has anything to do with it.

Sure, you may possibly get 5 chances to use an at-will ability. That is IF each player has a relevant skill and IF it gets rolled and IF they fail by less than 4.

The skills that multiple characters have tend to be skills that rolled as group checks, like perception or stealth. And group checks are even worse, because if one person fails... well, either you need to use it because otherwise everyone fails, or it doesn't make a difference because SOMEONE succeeded and that's all that matters.

And this does nothing to address players not wanting the spell cast on them so they don't "waste it".
Does nothing to address the tracking issue.
Does nothing to address the low roll issue of not wanting to risk wasting it on a gamble.

Frankly, if this is what people want from the spell, why not just make it a first level spell and be done with it? What is the point of a cantrip that has limited uses per day?