Shield Charge equivalent?

[Kae'Yoss]

Ok, get a fighter with a shield as his primary weapon, and a shield as his second, if you want. And your powerful shield feats. My bladesinger, armed only with a longsword, without shield or anything else in the off-hand. I'll voluntarily lose initiative so that you can charge. And after you hit mit me once with - wow - double damage, you'll get 4 regular attacks from me (5 with haste). As at least 3 of them usually hit, that will be triple damage. Also, if one of those becomes a critical hit (with a threat range of 15-20 not unlikely), it will be even more.
Next round, I'll even let you get away, and wait 'till you get back at me (maybe I'll cast some spells or dring a healing potion while you rearrange for your charge) and we repeat that.


Fact is: you DO get double damage (or even more with some feats), but you only get one single attack. And then it's the enemies turn, who can use the full attack action to hit you several times, usually dealing twice (or more) the damage of one attack.

 

[0-hr]

Yea ok, you win - I have no idea what I am talking about. I was under the impression that someone standing still could execute multiple (non-charging) attacks with a shield just like a guy with a sword does. But if I cannot attack unless I execute a charge first, then a sword is clearly a better weapon.

Just for my peace of mind, could you tell me the page, or quote the SRD, where it says shields are incapable of using the full attack option? I seem to be having a little trouble finding it...

 

[kreynolds]

I was under the impression that someone standing still could execute multiple (non-charging) attacks with a shield just like a guy with a sword does.

You can.

 

[Mistwell]

Yes, of course you can execute non-charging shield attacks. But It's the charging shield attacks that provide the additional damage. Otherwise, a shield is as effective as a club.

 

[Rel]

You can.

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm, kreynolds. Of course, you are pretty sharp and probably caught that already.

My theory is that your reply was short because you needed to write a quick feat for somebody.

Anyhow, Ki Ryn, I think the point that Kae Yoss was trying to make was that if you take two fighters with equal scores at an equal level, the shield basher is not necessarily superior because he has spent two of his feats (Improved Shield Bash and Shield Charge) on abilities that don't hugely increase the average damage he does each round (Of course the double damage on a charge is a nice damage bonuse but you don't get to charge every round or even every 3rd round in most combat situations.). The other fighter may have put his feats in areas that let him hit more often or do higher damage or Cleave or whatever.

It is only with the addition of spells like Brambles or Spikes that the double damage on the charge starts to become more powerful. But then again, that is what buffing spells do.

 

[Mistwell]

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm, kreynolds.

Cheeky monkey!

It is only with the addition of spells like Brambles or Spikes that the double damage on the charge starts to become more powerful. But then again, that is what buffing spells do.

When not charging, why would this be any different from dual wielding clubs with spikes cast on them? Oh, and clubs are eligible for the shillelagh spell, while your wooden shiled is not.

 

[Rel]

Cheeky monkey![/B]

Hush, Mistwell, or kreynolds will be giving me the Cheeky Monkey feat before this damn thread is over!

When not charging, why would this be any different from dual wielding clubs with spikes cast on them? Oh, and clubs are eligible for the shillelagh spell, while your wooden shiled is not.

You are correct. I think that Ki Ryn's real problem with the shield bash idea is that the additional Spikes damage would be doubled on a charge. That could wind up being some serious damage, especially on a crit.

I'm still not convinced that it is game breaking. If my Ranger/Cleric who double wields shields winds up breaking the game once he can cast Spikes, I'll let you know.

 

[reapersaurus]

Yea ok, you win - I have no idea what I am talking about.

Well, that's refeshing to hear someone actually state the obvious!

Ki Ryn - I just hope you're not saying that now a 1d6 weapon when used in a full attack is unbalancing?

If I had to guess, you are thinking that double-damage from a d6 weapon every 10 combat rounds or so is unbalancing compared to getting stuck with a d6 weapon the other 9 rounds.

Or something like that.
And I disagree.

 

[Malichor]

Just for my peace of mind, could you tell me the page, or quote the SRD, where it says shields are incapable of using the full attack option? I seem to be having a little trouble finding it...

Shields are perfectly capable of using the full-attack option, if you attack with one normally ... however, charging itself also requires a full-attack action. You can't use a full-attack action to both charge and get iterative attacks in the same round, i.e. if you make a charge attack then that is the only attack you get that round (assuming no one is hasted or anything like that).

 

[kreynolds]

My theory is that your reply was short because you needed to write a quick feat for somebody.

Let me know how this one works for ya'...

Borrowed Prestige [General]
Having no great reputation of your own (good or bad), you have the uncanny ability to stand upon the shoulders of giants to “borrow” the spotlight.
Prerequisites: Int 7+, It’s Not Over Yet, Lesser Idiocy.
Benefit: When replying to a post from a well-known board member, you can subtly “ride the coattails” of said board member. This allows you to elevate yourself far above the “little people”, because for a brief second, you appear to be functioning on the same wavelength and frame of mind of the other “cool people”.
Normal: Without this feat, you’re still a “nobody”.
Special: This feat doesn’t actually make you “someone”, though it does present an alternative to being constantly reminded that you are nobody, thus causing you to run the risk kicking your own bucket. In truth, this feat only makes you think you're "somebody".