Shifter Underpowered?

[The Iron Mark]

Is it just me or are Shifters underpowered compared to, oh I don't know, Sorcerers/Wizards? Shapechange does everything Greater Wild Shape and more. It gives you the type of the creature, you can turn into Collosal and Fine creatures, you can turn into Fey(not that big since most powers are Su), and there is no HD limit. Should the Shifter be changed in some way to sompensate? Get (Su) of creatures maybe? Actually get the type? Or am I just missing something that makes the Shifter better than a level 17 Wizard?

 

[kreynolds]

Is it just me or are Shifters underpowered compared to, oh I don't know, Sorcerers/Wizards? Shapechange does everything Greater Wild Shape and more. It gives you the type of the creature, you can turn into Collosal and Fine creatures, you can turn into Fey(not that big since most powers are Su), and there is no HD limit. Should the Shifter be changed in some way to sompensate? Get (Su) of creatures maybe? Actually get the type? Or am I just missing something that makes the Shifter better than a level 17 Wizard?

Hit die, d8, for one. How about the fact that Greater Wild Shape becomes supernatural, thus impervious to dispel magic? Or how about the fact that the Shifter can eventually use Greater Wild Shape 1/round for as long as they like?

 

[The Iron Mark]

I guess over a period of time, Shifter would be okay, but as the Wizard you could always carry around scrolls of Shapechange so you could use it whenver you needed. And I think someone said that the Sage said that a Shifter can heal themselves only up to 9 times(plus any Wild Shapes from Druid). If this didn't happen then Shifters would be really good. Oh, and I guess being able to use weapons in any form is pretty sweet too.

 

[kreynolds]

I guess over a period of time, Shifter would be okay, but as the Wizard you could always carry around scrolls of Shapechange so you could use it whenver you needed. And I think someone said that the Sage said that a Shifter can heal themselves only up to 9 times(plus any Wild Shapes from Druid). If this didn't happen then Shifters would be really good. Oh, and I guess being able to use weapons in any form is pretty sweet too.

Exactly. Given enough levels, they balance out pretty well. Though there is the obvious advantage that a wizard has...Finger of Death. But even then, they're still pretty even. The goods and bads of wizards and shifters are pretty much just circumstantial. It all depends on what kind of game the DM is running.

 

[The Iron Mark]

Only thing is what you can change into pretty much depends on the DM. I wonder if having enough ranks in a Knowledge skill would let you know about a creature without seeing it.(maybe studying the creature for two days at the library instead of one day observing/one encounter?) Do you think you could change into creatures that have a template as long as you have met the standard requirements.

 

[kreynolds]

Only thing is what you can change into pretty much depends on the DM. I wonder if having enough ranks in a Knowledge skill would let you know about a creature without seeing it.(maybe studying the creature for two days at the library instead of one day observing/one encounter?)

That's how I would handle it, with a knowledge check and an appropriately difficult DC.

Do you think you could change into creatures that have a template as long as you have met the standard requirements.

Ummm...not sure...to tired to answer that right now. Don't wanna make a fool out of myself just now.

 

[Zhure]

I don't think the Shifter is overpowered, although it'd depend on the DM's campaign, of course.

Most of us have been looking at the Shifter at his maximum levels, not thinking about how long and slow a road the shifter/druid has to go through to get there. While his companions are casting 4th, 5th, and 6th level spells, he's slowly getting about 1 extra wildshape per day as his magical abilities.

Sure there's no official duration for Wildshape anymore, but it definitely has a finite number of uses. To overcome this, the shifter could take "Extra Shifting" as Feats, but that becomes a wasted bunch of feats when he hits shifter 10.

If you strictly compare a Druid5/Shifter 10 to a Sorcerer 15, or Wizard 15, or Druid 15, then the Druid/Shifter looks about as powerful. Until that point, the other classes are far more flexible.

I think the key reason everyone's been harping about the shifter is they sound just dang fun to play.

Greg

 

[Galfridus]

Shifters would probably tend to lose straight-out duels with equivalently classed wizards. But Shifters are flexible.

I want to play a Shifter because I can use my creativity to overcome situations as they happen. I don't have to worry about which spells I prepared, which weapons I am carrying, etc. -- I have full access to all my capabilities all the time. And the range of those capabilities is very, very large, even if they don't get as powerful as for some other classes.

 

[The Iron Mark]

And all you have to do to stop that Wizard is turn into a Will O' Wisp. Spell Immunity rules.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Honestly, at higher levels ALL of the classes tend to be underpowered compared to wiz/sorc (with the exception of the cleric).

With the exception of a few really cool abilities residing at high levels of certain prestige classes, ongoing spellcasting classes tend to be more powerful.

Tzarevitch