Shoe speaks: Snake's Swiftness

[MerricB]

Shoe = Stephen Schubert, one of the nice R&D people at Wizards.

He posted this on Maxminis, about the balance of "mass snake's swiftness" (Sor/Wiz3, Drd 2), from the Miniatures Handbook and the Spell Compendium:

Shoe:
A point about mass snake's swiftness:
A fireball, cast by a 5th level caster, deals 5d6 damage to creatures in a 20-foot burst. 5d6 averages to 17 points of damage, and a Reflex save is allowed for half damage, so in effect creatures in the area take 8 or 17 points of damage. Some variance applies due to immunities, resistances or (rarely) abilities such as evasion, but it is a fairly standard 3rd level spell, and one used as the baseline for the power level of such spells.

Lets look at mass snake's, now -- a typical 5th level fighter, with 16+ Str, Weapon Specialization, heck, even a +1 sword, might deal 1d8+6, or maybe 2d6+7 damage, if he hits (average damage is 10.5 and 14). A typical 5th level rogue, in optimal position (flanking), will deal 4d6+2 or so (average 16). Variance here is introduced by the target creature's AC, or possibly DR or immunities (like vs. sneak attack), and the resulting damage is usually an always on/always off affair, instead of a save for half.

In comparison, if Atk vs. AC and Reflex vs DC are equal (and often they aren't - many creatures have poor Reflex), then the spells result in about the same amount of damage when cast, with one significant exception - mass snake's requires the party to first get in position to take greatest advantage of the spell's effect.

As levels scale, so does the damage -- but damage for fireball scales also...

Now, mass snake's is better in those instances where the opponent is outnumbered, and worse in those instances where the wizard is outnumbered -- specifically when there are more opponents than there are viable melee threats. And I'm sure that some combos are encouraged (like the fighter with Cleave), but I don't see this spell as being too powerful, compared to other options available to the wizard (from the PHB, no less).

I also think it's a great spell for the game, since it encourages players to work together to overcome a fight, instead of simply staying out of range of the fireball...

###

The last comment is particularly interesting. (I've been seeing the druid beginning to cast the normal Snake's Swiftness in my games, and it's a very good spell)

Cheers!

 

[frankthedm]

MSS is simply broken at higher levels, punishing lone foes even worse than the economy of actions already does in the 3.5E game.

And don't get me started on "Oh its got an animal name, lets give it to the Druid at a lower level."

 

[I'm A Banana]

MSS is simply broken at higher levels, punishing lone foes even worse than the economy of actions already does in the 3.5E game.

Perhaps the designers are under the impression that lone-foe "boss fights" and the like are much rarer than they actually tend to be in your campaign?

I mean, I think high-level combat, I think hordes. I know that's not always the case, but perhaps they were using that as a baseline, when not everyone conforms to that....?

 

[BlackMoria]

I have neither the Spell Compendium or the Miniature Handbook, so what does Mass Snake's Quickness do exactly?

I assume it allows a extra melee attack in its base form and allows multiple targets to do so in its 'Mass' form...

Hard to comment on it without knowing what it does.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

MSS is simply broken at higher levels, punishing lone foes even worse than the economy of actions already does in the 3.5E game.

I would rather suggest that it is lone boss monsters that are "simply broken at higher levels."

This is something I figured out within about 2 months of 3rd Ed coming out.

 

[fafhrd]

Just ask Jackelope King about the Crushinator. Snakes swiftness with a cohort is teh broken!

 

[ohGr]

I guess i just fail to see how mass snake's swiftness is any more "broken" than haste. (Note, i don't have the Spell Compendium, i'm going on the MiniHB version of the spell.) MSS gives a bunch of people an extra attack, haste gives a bunch of people an extra attack per round for several rounds. Yeah, MSS has a better range and AoE and all the attacks it grants happen immediately, but i just don't see how it could stack up so favourably to the 5-20 potential extra attacks per target and other bonuses of haste.

Yeah, MSS is a very situationally strong spell, but it is otherwise strictly inferiour to haste, and i don't think anyone would classify haste as "broken." Maybe i'm just missing something...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The advantage of mass snakes swiftness over haste is that:
1. All of the extra attacks happen at once rather than being spread out over a round. Thus, you only have to have your hitters in position at one point of the round; with haste, if your hitters are later tripped, bull-rushed, trapped behind a wall of ice/stone/force, tanglefoot bagged, or the enemy tumbles away to avoid the full attack the extra attacks don't occur in the round of casting. Also, an enemy damaged by haste attacks has an opportunity to get off a final attack or to be healed in between all of the attacks.

2. Mass snake's swiftness can give that extra attack in the crucial opening round of combat. Haste only gives an extra attack on a full attack.

3. It's on the druid's spell list and haste isn't.

In a lot of situations, haste is a better bet than mass snake's swiftness, but there are a fair number of situations where mass snake's swiftness is competitive or can be put to better use.

 

[boolean]

The really nasty point is when you combine it with the Marshall's Grant Move Action ability.

Move everybody into position, then give them all an extra attack.