D&D 5E (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

Just a thought, but given they are still legal & from a PHB, but not in the 2024 PHB, should they s

  • Yes

    Votes: 102 48.6%
  • No

    Votes: 81 38.6%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 14 6.7%
  • Other explained in comments

    Votes: 13 6.2%

I don’t think giving mechanics to culture is a good idea. It will get easily super problematic with human cultures, especially as in many existing settings those cultures have clear real world inspirations.

But I agree that we don’t need thousand elf subspecies etc. The base species rules and backgrounds should be built to be flexible enough that they can be represented via those.
Mechanically, a "culture" is an assemblage of "backgrounds".

As time passes and a culture evolves, certain backgrounds become more prominent while other backgrounds become archaic or obsolete. Certain regions within a same culture, such as a mining town or a sea port, would have different backgrounds enjoy more local prominence. Even the language or languages of a culture evolve over time.

Ultimately, a culture is fluid. Even when there is real continuity.
 

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I am viewing the YouTube interview of Perkins and others, "2024 Dungeon Masters Guide − Everything You Need to Know".

It characterizes the original 1980 Greyhawk setting as "countries in alphabetic order". By contrast, the 2024 DMsGuide focuses on the City of Greyhawk itself. Then gives the DM an overview of the various regional conflicts (in the subcontinent Flanaess). The DMs Guide expects the DM to use the tools in the DMs Guide to flesh out the setting and make it ones own. This includes inventing new towns.
 

Don't agree. No species is necessary. If mechanics didn't exist, then you would just describe your character as an elf and be "elf-like" while describing what your character was doing as you were playing the game.

After all... when do the "elf mechanics" actually show up in the game that are specifically about being an elf? You get a few spells? You can get the exact same suite of spells though other non-species means. You get proficiency in either Insight, Perception, or Survival? EVERY PC can have those proficiencies-- some even getting all three. Advantage on saving throws versus the Charmed condition? Character get bonuses and advantage on saves all the time for any number of things. The only thing that an "elf" gets mechanically that is actually distinctly an "elf mechanic" is Trance-- and that's a mechanic that almost never actually matters because even when they finish their "4-hour Long Rest"... they still sit around the other 4 hours twiddling their thumbs waiting for the rest of the party to wake up. That character could not have that mechanic and the game would not be any different for them.

So no... nothing about elf mechanics truly does anything to distinguish an elf character from any other character. And while you are playing, none of those mechanics will ever be used to say to anyone in the moment "I'm an elf!" That +2 bonus to your Insight checks from being an elf will be glossed over whenever you are making an Insight check just like gaining that +2 bonus to Perception checks that you got from your Background. Heck... you could swap which game feature gave you your proficiencies in Perception and Insight from Species to Background and you would never be able to tell the difference and the character would still play exactly the same.

So yeah... you think you need these small little mechanics to denote what your species is. And if someone was reading a section in the book that said "These are what an elf has that denote them being an elf"... then it feels like they actually have meaning. But once you add those mechanics to the giant stew that is the mechanical representation of a D&D character... any specificity is lost. And thus you could remove those mechanics and most likely never even notice it.
I like the argument presented here.

Extending on your idea, the Trance ability, depending on the DM, may allow for more downtime activity which is a nice ribbon feature.

I have 2 questions.

1. Are there any ways you see racial mechanics actually matter?
Because if all mechanics are boiled down to +x or Advantage then that is a very redundant way to look at things.

For instance, I may as DM offer a PC elf
Advantage when attempting to persuade a fellow elf in the elven tongue
Advantage in history when attempting to recall an elvish poem to solve a riddle
Advantage in religion when attempting to perform the traditional elvish funeral rites
...etc

2. If personality was mechanised and certain racial traits affected the personality somewhat, would you see that as mattering or would you still maintain it can be broken down to +x or Advantage/Disadvantage?
 



I have 2 questions.

1. Are there any ways you see racial mechanics actually matter?
Because if all mechanics are boiled down to +x or Advantage then that is a very redundant way to look at things.

For instance, I may as DM offer a PC elf
Advantage when attempting to persuade a fellow elf in the elven tongue
Advantage in history when attempting to recall an elvish poem to solve a riddle
Advantage in religion when attempting to perform the traditional elvish funeral rites
...etc

2. If personality was mechanised and certain racial traits affected the personality somewhat, would you see that as mattering or would you still maintain it can be broken down to +x or Advantage/Disadvantage?
Good questions.

To me, for 1... personally, no. I am of the belief that mechanics are in fact a worse way to denote something important or special about your species. Why? Because game mechanics still can easily fail.

An elf character gets a bonus to Persuasion checks with other elves? All that means is that IF that elf character was to make 20 or more Persuasion checks against other elves... on average they might succeed a few more times. That's it. But even those few successes would not be physically noticeable by the player to know that having that bonus actually did something. One player succeeds on 13 Persuasion checks out of 20, the other player succeeds on 11. But have either of them been keeping track of these successes as they been "roleplaying"-- making points and asking questions of this other elf character in-game-- and the DM keeps having them roll Persuasion checks? Not a chance. Especially when some of those rolls end up being for rather unimportant things in the story. And now you spread those elven Persuasion checks over many, many, many game sessions? None of us would ever be able to notice just how many times our checks succeeded more often because of that species ability to get a bonus. +2 to Persuasion against other elves? Completely unnoticeable bonus throughout the course of the campaign. You might as well not even have it.

But you know what we would notice? If it just worked. If there wasn't a roll, no chance of failure, being an elf just meant almost all of the time they interacted with other elves, they got what they were looking for. THAT would mean something. If you as an elf character had an ability that said you just always succeeded in almost all reasonable actions and information gathering when dealing with other elves. Skip the mechanics altogether-- you just did stuff. No questions or failures asked.

And it's not like the game didn't use to have that. The 5E14 Background Features just gave away stuff for free that the PCs could do. Acolytes could get free room and board at the temples of their god no questions asked. Soldiers could just requisition equipment or horses by pulling rank absolutely freely, no game mechanic necessary. Rangers were so good at finding their way through the wilderness they would never get lost in regular terrain, again, no questions asked. Clerics could ask their god through divine intervention for virtually anything and very rarely their god would just give it to them.

Just the ability to do stuff when the player thinks of it has so much more meaning than just being slightly better at doing it than someone else does-- especially when that thing is something that supposedly is super-important... like who you are as a member of a completely different species. How can anyone say that being a member of a species is super-important to the character when that species gives out four dinky game mechanics... most of which are gained by all other PCs as well, just through other means?

For 2... again, why use game mechanics when the DM can just say "it works", when it involves something supposedly integral and important and ingrained in a character? If you are a goody-two-shoes personality Paladin and have done stuff in the campaign whenever possible that has bettered society in whatever city that paladin has resided in... when the DM sees that Paladin interact with other NPCs... that Paladin should just be getting things done, no dice rolls needed. Their reputation precedes them. That's the reward for the paladin player playing as a goody-two-shoes personality.

And that doesn't mean we need a new "Reputation mechanic" inserted into the game that the Paladin can score points in to then roll on to get bonuses on skill checks later... no... because that just means that Paladin can still fail for absolutely no reason except complete and utter luck (poor). Which is dumb quite frankly in my opinion. At some point, even character classes should just be able to do stuff-- same way we don't ask players to roll to see if they succeed in going to the bathroom. Why waste time? If that Paladin PC has a great rep... then let that player ENJOY having created and roleplayed their character to such a point that they've ACQUIRED that rep and it gives them something worthwhile in the story.

I honestly believe this. I believe that way too many people want nothing more than to turn everything in this game of D&D into merely statistics, like they're playing fantasy football or something. All that matters is the numbers. Numbers have to be balanced, numbers have to be gained, numbers have to tell us what has happened. And pure narration and imagination is something to be shunned.

To me, that is such a waste of what D&D (and all RPGs) can be.
 

Wasting time implies I don't find joy in complaining and ranting
Absolutely. That's why I don't ever tell people they can't do it... only that I find it silly.

But so what? I don't think anyone cares what I think about their action, nor should they. I understand that and am fine with it. But the same way I have to read threads where people show up to complain in them... they have to then read my reactions to it. Cause turn about is fair play.
 

Good questions.

To me, for 1... personally, no. I am of the belief that mechanics are in fact a worse way to denote something important or special about your species. Why? Because game mechanics still can easily fail.

An elf character gets a bonus to Persuasion checks with other elves? All that means is that IF that elf character was to make 20 or more Persuasion checks against other elves... on average they might succeed a few more times. That's it. But even those few successes would not be physically noticeable by the player to know that having that bonus actually did something. One player succeeds on 13 Persuasion checks out of 20, the other player succeeds on 11. But have either of them been keeping track of these successes as they been "roleplaying"-- making points and asking questions of this other elf character in-game-- and the DM keeps having them roll Persuasion checks? Not a chance. Especially when some of those rolls end up being for rather unimportant things in the story. And now you spread those elven Persuasion checks over many, many, many game sessions? None of us would ever be able to notice just how many times our checks succeeded more often because of that species ability to get a bonus. +2 to Persuasion against other elves? Completely unnoticeable bonus throughout the course of the campaign. You might as well not even have it.

But you know what we would notice? If it just worked. If there wasn't a roll, no chance of failure, being an elf just meant almost all of the time they interacted with other elves, they got what they were looking for. THAT would mean something. If you as an elf character had an ability that said you just always succeeded in almost all reasonable actions and information gathering when dealing with other elves. Skip the mechanics altogether-- you just did stuff. No questions or failures asked.

And it's not like the game didn't use to have that. The 5E14 Background Features just gave away stuff for free that the PCs could do. Acolytes could get free room and board at the temples of their god no questions asked. Soldiers could just requisition equipment or horses by pulling rank absolutely freely, no game mechanic necessary. Rangers were so good at finding their way through the wilderness they would never get lost in regular terrain, again, no questions asked. Clerics could ask their god through divine intervention for virtually anything and very rarely their god would just give it to them.

Just the ability to do stuff when the player thinks of it has so much more meaning than just being slightly better at doing it than someone else does-- especially when that thing is something that supposedly is super-important... like who you are as a member of a completely different species. How can anyone say that being a member of a species is super-important to the character when that species gives out four dinky game mechanics... most of which are gained by all other PCs as well, just through other means?

For 2... again, why use game mechanics when the DM can just say "it works", when it involves something supposedly integral and important and ingrained in a character? If you are a goody-two-shoes personality Paladin and have done stuff in the campaign whenever possible that has bettered society in whatever city that paladin has resided in... when the DM sees that Paladin interact with other NPCs... that Paladin should just be getting things done, no dice rolls needed. Their reputation precedes them. That's the reward for the paladin player playing as a goody-two-shoes personality.

And that doesn't mean we need a new "Reputation mechanic" inserted into the game that the Paladin can score points in to then roll on to get bonuses on skill checks later... no... because that just means that Paladin can still fail for absolutely no reason except complete and utter luck (poor). Which is dumb quite frankly in my opinion. At some point, even character classes should just be able to do stuff-- same way we don't ask players to roll to see if they succeed in going to the bathroom. Why waste time? If that Paladin PC has a great rep... then let that player ENJOY having created and roleplayed their character to such a point that they've ACQUIRED that rep and it gives them something worthwhile in the story.

I honestly believe this. I believe that way too many people want nothing more than to turn everything in this game of D&D into merely statistics, like they're playing fantasy football or something. All that matters is the numbers. Numbers have to be balanced, numbers have to be gained, numbers have to tell us what has happened. And pure narration and imagination is something to be shunned.

To me, that is such a waste of what D&D (and all RPGs) can be.
Thanks for the reply. Very informative.
Even though I do not play this way I certainly see its appeal and can appreciate it.
And wish in a way D&D had the necessary hacks/options to cater more to this style of play.
 

Are there any ways you see racial mechanics actually matter?
Because if all mechanics are boiled down to +x or Advantage then that is a very redundant way to look at things.

For instance, I may as DM offer a PC elf
Advantage when attempting to persuade a fellow elf in the elven tongue
Advantage in history when attempting to recall an elvish poem to solve a riddle
Advantage in religion when attempting to perform the traditional elvish funeral rites
...etc
I hope you'll forgive me for interjecting my own thoughts.

What you describe doesn't seem to me like racial mechanics. Those ideas could just as easily be applied, say, to a person from City X or County Y encountering a fellow of theirs abroad; or someone who is fluent in such-and-such a regional dialect or obscure field of knowledge brining that to bear on a present situation; etc.

To be clear: I'm not saying that your ideas/examples are bad ones. On the contrary, they seem like good ones! But to me they seem like an alternative to racial mechanics, not an example of such mechanics. I mean, on your approach we could replace the whole Elf (or Dwarf, or . . .) entry with a simple descriptor (Elf, Dwarf, . . .) together with a few sentences of description (Elves typically live in their wooded kingdoms or the fastnesses hidden in the deep river valleys . . .). It would move at least that aspect of the game to a much greater focus on the fiction, and the PC's fictional position, and what that suggests for how things might play out in the game.
 

What you describe doesn't seem to me like racial mechanics. Those ideas could just as easily be applied, say, to a person from City X or Count Y encountering a fellow of theirs abroad; or someone who is fluent in such-and-such a regional dialect or obscure field of knowledge brining that to bear on a present situation; etc.
That is fair.
My probing @DEFCON 1 was to get an idea behind their thinking and if my ideas were more in-line with what they may consider mechanics for races.

I find DEFCON 1's preference for absolute successes on certain actions when it comes to your race, background, or class quite novel as I have historically been against that style of play, but in their description of it I find it could make quite an appealing D&D-lite game, perfect for a Narrative-styled game.

I find myself attracted to many styles of play...hellishly confusing when you're trying to make your own game. :ROFLMAO:
 

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