D&D 4E Should 4e martial artists have "monk" flavor?

[~Johnny~]

The nature of the D&D monk has always seemed a little odd to me. When people hear the word "monk," some people think of this:

...while others think of this:

(And a few might think of this.)

The D&D concept tends to be closer to the Shaolin monk, but settings like Forgotten Realms and Eberron have these martial artists revering the same gods as their armored, mace-wielding brothers in the faith. It always seems a little awkward when it's wedged into worlds that are more based on Western history than Eastern history, but a lot of players love the fun of playing a living weapon, so the class endures. And since the mechanics of the class have very little to do with actually being a member of a monastic order, it's easy enough to ignore the flavor.

How important do you think the actual "monk" flavor of the monk class is to the game? Is it something that should be removed in favor of a more generic martial arts class? Should 4e maintain the name and flavor, but avoid any religion-oriented mechanics? Or should the monk-iness of the class be embraced and, perhaps, better defined? Place your vote and comment here!

 

[Rechan]

Why is there not a "Make a Non-Monk/Mystical Martial artist AND a mystical kung fu ascetic class/flavor" option?

 

[CanadienneBacon]

As a concept, monks have always bugged me big time in D&D. Guess I lean more toward the first of your two pics (the studious sort) when I conceptualize monks. That D&D makes monks martial artists a la the east and still tries to maintain a medieval european feel has always bothered me.

Until I figured out that I need to say "yes" to more things that my players request and want to try, I used to try to ban monks. I allow 'em now but they still give me pause.

 

[~Johnny~]

Why is there not a "Make a Non-Monk/Mystical Martial artist AND a mystical kung fu ascetic class/flavor" option?

Good point. Sadly, I don't think I can edit the poll now. More options are always great, but there's still a way to answer the survey:

Which would you want to see first? Or if they only did one, which would you want to see?

BTW, I actually don't have a strong opinion about this, and I haven't voted yet.

 

[WayneLigon]

I have never known anyone to mistake the D&D Monk for a Christian-esque 'brother'. The class isn't 'closer' to a Shaolin Monk, it is that very thing, wholly and completely. I can't, in fact, think of one single thing about the class that is in any way similar to the European monks.

A more generic martial arts class would be good, but I think that what we really need is a sort of... template or something that can be acquirred at low level for a fighter, rogue or other martial classes that lets them also be good at non-mystical hand-to-hand fighting. Even very good; Brotherhood of the Wolf good. I'd love to play a fighter that was an expert at brawling or boxing or dirty alley fighting. As it is, by reserving any dergee of skill in hand-to-hand fighting strictly to the Monk and making it a feat choice for everyone else, you can't have a soldier who is an experienced bar-brawler.

Then keep the mystical, quasi-magical chi-based powers for the Monk. In fact, I think they should just bite the bullet and make the Monk a psionics-based class. Quit pussy-footing around the super Shaolin mysical stuff and let them ignore worn armor, blow holes in people etc.

 

[Incenjucar]

Monk is just a religious title, not a proper descriptor, anyways.

The D&D monk is a "Wuxia Warrior" or something.

Monk is a title you could apply to just about any class with the right flavor.

 

[Darkness]

Good point. Sadly, I don't think I can edit the poll now.

I've added the option. Just tell me if the text doesn't work for you.

 

[~Johnny~]

I have never known anyone to mistake the D&D Monk for a Christian-esque 'brother'. The class isn't 'closer' to a Shaolin Monk, it is that very thing, wholly and completely. I can't, in fact, think of one single thing about the class that is in any way similar to the European monks.

About the only similarities is that they're ascetic, they live in monasteries, and they are usually presented as worshipping a "god" rather than a philosophy. When monks are treated as foreign or at least "alternative" to the dominant paradigm, I think they fit. But if 4e follows 3e's example, we'll have "monks of Bahamut" and the like. That tie to churches is more European than Eastern, and it seems wrong to me.

Anyway, I really like your idea of making awesome hand-to-hand combat something accessible through feats or maybe a fighter talent tree, and leaving the monk as a psionic-based specialist in such techniques.

 

[Ahglock]

I'd prefer if the mystic stuff was there but not baggage that you had to take with you. Make it a talent tree that you can choose to go into or not.

 

[Rechan]

Which would you want to see first? Or if they only did one, which would you want to see?

Honestly, I say we could see them in the same supplement.

We know that the Fighter can go one of three routes, at least according to R&C: Defense (Sword and Board), Offense (THW) and Hinder/Control.

So an Unarmed Combatant class (who would be a striker, btw, according to R&C), could go Mystic, Brawler, or (Something).

The Mystic would look a lot like the 3e Monk's powerset. Perhaps more focus on special moves like Stunning Fist or other features/special moves he taps into.

The Brawler would be a strength athlete, like the Strongest Man in a circus, or in a Fantasy setting, he'd be like Hercules. Grappling, throwing, and all-out slugging opponents. I can see a Mule Punch style haymaker that makes an opponent lose AC or to-hit because he's staggered from a blow.

The Something could be something I'm missing. Either just a straight quick martial artist (lots of kicks and hits; flurry?), or someone stealthy, more like an unarmed assassin. Or this could be the Grappler/Thrower, and the Brawler could be a straight damage dealing striker.

Alternatively, the Monk as it is in 3e could have a different Power source like Ki, and the non-mystic martial artist would likely be a Martial character. If I had to choose, I'd prefer to see the non-mystic first, and see the Monk with the other Ki power source classes (Ninja, Samurai, etc).