D&D 5E Should All Subclasses Be Gained at 1st Level?

[tetrasodium]

Yes. I like to level my players slowly to support a longer campaign and put more focus on things like equipment through actions gskem for the early growth but because of the late & varied archetype choice point I run into a few issues

*I can't really make any equipment that is too interesting because some players will still have their archetype choice coming up fast & that item needs to be sure it will play nice without being broken by any of the archetype choices or Bob will just change plans & choose a different archetype that planned that makes it broken.

* I wind up being pressured becsyde Alice d and Bob have their archetypes but dawn & chuck won't till 2 but eddy needs third

 

[RoughCoronet0]

I feel that for the most part, how the subclasses are distributed level wise is fine so I wouldn’t change anything.

However, if a change must be decided on, I’d pick each class gaining a subclass at Lv 1 instead of later, if only because it find it difficult to make a justification for why a Cleric, Sorcerer, or Warlock would be able to be what they are without their specialization active at the start.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Going back to the original topic of the thread: I think that if a class-based choice will change how you use your ability scores, it should be made at 1st level. The typical example here is the Valor Bard, who needs a high Dex if they intend to do any fighting at the start but once they get their medium armor and martial weapon proficiencies can get by pretty well with Strength.

I would also like to see more choices made throughout advancement. Maybe not as big as the subclass choice, but decently-sized ones. As a good example, I present the Warlock: choice of patron at first level, an orthogonal choice of path (tome, blade, chain) at third, and then ongoing choices of invocations every few levels. As a bad example, I give you the Paladin: once they've chosen their Oath, they're pretty much on autopilot.

Unfortunately warlock is also a bad example, since bladelocks don't really let you do what it looks like they should let you do.

 

[Minigiant]

However, if a change must be decided on, I’d pick each class gaining a subclass at Lv 1 instead of later, if only because it find it difficult to make a justification for why a Cleric, Sorcerer, or Warlock would be able to be what they are without their specialization active at the start.

Easy.

Low level magic isn't themed.

I've often felt that the 1st level spells of the Cleric, Druid, Bard, Warlock,and Sorcerer should be "generic". Their themed spells really shouldn't pop until "fully trained" at level 3 and have all their iconic class features.

Like the magic of a properlly trained 1st level sorcerer is white. They are not strong and controlled enough to tap into their bloodline and color their magic until level 3.

The 1st level bloodline sorcerers and warlocks are the reckless one. Basically the fools, failed apprentices, dropouts, or a patron's "shovelheads"*.

*Shovelhead is a VTM term where a vampire mass-embraces a bunch of people into vampires, hits them with a shovel, and buries them in the ground. The process of digging out your grave as a hungry new vampire creates easily controlled shock troops for battle.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Low level magic isn't themed.

This reminds me how in AD&D first and second level spells were a matter of ritual to learn them. 3-5th level spells came from your god's servants or whatever, and 6-7th level spells directly from your god.

 

[Minigiant]

This reminds me how in AD&D first and second level spells were a matter of ritual to learn them. 3-5th level spells came from your god's servants or whatever, and 6-7th level spells directly from your god.

That's a cool idea.

One thing I wish for in 6e is theme nonclasss lists. So the bass class would be generic but you add 2 lists to your repertoire like the 3e cleric. Like a light cleric, fiend lock, wildfire druid, and red dragon sorcerer all get the fire list. But at level 3. Then you get another at 7th or something.

Like your god or patron won't give you their theme until you prove your loyalty strength or faith.

 

[DND_Reborn]

One thing I wish for in 6e is theme nonclasss lists. So the bass class would be generic but you add 2 lists to your repertoire like the 3e cleric. Like a light cleric, fiend lock, wildfire druid, and red dragon sorcerer all get the fire list. But at level 3. Then you get another at 7th or something.

We've revised the spell list to reduce the "sameyness" of spells, reducing overlap by 1/2 between classes, but that was when Sorcerer and Warlock were subclasses of Wizard and Cleric.

Now, to trim-down our 5E Mod, we are considering bringing them back to full-class status, but that is reeking havoc on our revised spell lists as they will now have to be redone.

While working on them today, I thought for a while: "What if there were no spell lists? Would it hurt anything if any spell could be cast by any class? Then your spell selection would define your role more than your class."

Certain spells would still be favored, of course, because of class features, but it would make it so your class "extras" and not your spells would define you.

• Bards = Inspiration
• Clerics = Channel Divinity
• Druids = Wildshaping
• Paladins = Smites
• Rangers = ??? (Hunter's Marking seems too limited but maybe something along those lines)
• Sorcerers = Metamagic
• Warlocks = Invocations
• Wizards = ??? also (maybe more spell slots? I did that for my L12 variant)

And perhaps cherry pick a handful of iconic spells to gain at select levels like you suggest?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Thanks to all for your feedback and votes.

FWIW, I've decided to move all subclasses to level 3. This prevents dips and also decreases the frontloading of features. For classes with subclasses at level 1, it makes it so levels 1 and 2 will serve as "initiate or devotee" levels as the probationer proves their dedication, etc. to the tenets of their subclass. For sorcerers they will be discovering their the origin within themselves, etc.

Cheers!

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I want level 3 to be renamed level 1 and level 1 and 2 being apprentice levels. And when you multiclass you should have to go through the apprentice levels but you start your game at level "new 1" = "old 3" with average of 3 hit dice hp and 3 hit dice.
All subclass choices are at level "new 1".

 

[DND_Reborn]

I want level 3 to be renamed level 1 and level 1 and 2 being apprentice levels. And when you multiclass you should have to go through the apprentice levels but you start your game at level "new 1" = "old 3" with average of 3 hit dice hp and 3 hit dice.
All subclass choices are at level "new 1".

I know a lot of groups (so I've heard) start at level 3, which considering how quickly levels 1-2 go for many groups I suppose wouldn't be bad.

Personally, I don't want to start with 3x HD, it is just too "survivable" for low levels IMO. Also I wouldn't be keen on starting with 2nd level spells. But to each their own.