D&D 5E Should All Subclasses Be Gained at 1st Level?

[aco175]

I want level 3 to be renamed level 1 and level 1 and 2 being apprentice levels. And when you multiclass you should have to go through the apprentice levels but you start your game at level "new 1" = "old 3" with average of 3 hit dice hp and 3 hit dice.
All subclass choices are at level "new 1".

Isn't it the same thing under a different name? If I want a 32oz super-sized soda to be called a small so I feel better- it is still 32oz of soda. Or is it along the lines of renaming race to heritage where it is still the same thing but we are changing the name to make others feel better. Would others feel better if they adventured for a few weeks to reach 1st level? Could I still have a 20th level PC, or am I capped at 18? If I take the red pill, is it still the same adventure as if I took the blue pill?

 

[HammerMan]

Well the question is whether you should be allowed to be a spell casting fighter or spell casting rogue at level 1?

And if you answer is yes, the solution is not to make subclasses at level 1. It's to do the thing most dreaded

ADD NEW CLASSES!

I am 100% on the page that we should have a martial 1/2 caster arcane like ranger/paliden

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Isn't it the same thing under a different name? If I want a 32oz super-sized soda to be called a small so I feel better- it is still 32oz of soda. Or is it along the lines of renaming race to heritage where it is still the same thing but we are changing the name to make others feel better. Would others feel better if they adventured for a few weeks to reach 1st level? Could I still have a 20th level PC, or am I capped at 18? If I take the red pill, is it still the same adventure as if I took the blue pill?

I would indeed like the game to go up to level 22 by old standards.
I also think it does make a difference in feel. 3e (I am not sure if 3.5 still had them) actually had apprentice levels so you could multiclass at level 1.
I think being able to start your official career with a few more hp and possibly with different classes would be a great addition. Also some abilties can be pushed back a little bit.
And of course it is now set in stone that you start with all your subclass features at level 1.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I know a lot of groups (so I've heard) start at level 3, which considering how quickly levels 1-2 go for many groups I suppose wouldn't be bad.

Personally, I don't want to start with 3x HD, it is just too "survivable" for low levels IMO. Also I wouldn't be keen on starting with 2nd level spells. But to each their own.

Oh. I forgot to mention: spellcasters start with level 1 spells. Apprentice wizards only have cantrips (and of course the ability to deal one damage to target enemy player or creature).

 

[NotAYakk]

I think it might be a bit overkill if you had the mechanical complexity of every subclass at once in a level 1 character.

It also makes for a muddled narrative. I mean, an I a champion of nature, or a diviner wizard, a swashbuckler or a bear totem barbarian? Not every subclass fits every PC.

I think only getting 1 subclass is a much better situation. Ok, maybe 2 or 3, that would add some spice.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Thanks to all for your feedback and votes.

FWIW, I've decided to move all subclasses to level 3. This prevents dips and also decreases the frontloading of features. For classes with subclasses at level 1, it makes it so levels 1 and 2 will serve as "initiate or devotee" levels as the probationer proves their dedication, etc. to the tenets of their subclass. For sorcerers they will be discovering their the origin within themselves, etc.

Cheers!

FYI, I went the other way completely, and in a moment of pure shattered mind, I decided that players would gain most of their features from classes and archetypes at level 1! I thought: are high level features really that powerful and need to be gated behind a high level? I took a good look at Land Stride, and I got my answer.

Further level add more uses of said features, but say a fighter, would gain 1 use of Second Wind, 1 use of Action Surge, 1 use of Indomitable per day, with one more use each 4 levels or so. A champion (taken also at 1st level) also has a crit range of 18-20, 1 extra fighting style and remarkable athlete (revamped because it suck as a feature!). Only extra attacks were left at 5/11/17.

It would seem it is somewhat close to 2e, since I based myself on the class progression of BG2.

 

[DND_Reborn]

FYI, I went the other way completely, and in a moment of pure shattered mind, I decided that players would gain most of their features from classes and archetypes at level 1! I thought: are high level features really that powerful and need to be gated behind a high level? I took a good look at Land Stride, and I got my answer.

While I agree that many features aren't that strong at higher levels, to me it is more a point of balance between what "a 1st level character is" compared to everything else. I get doing subclasses at 1st level because that is what we were doing, but it felt like the PCs has too much power to be "1st level" IMO.

Giving them the later features as well would make for a completely OP play-style for me.

In that regard, I do wish there were more "little things" for tiers 1 and 2, especially if you had to choose from A, B, and C options instead of getting them all. My group seems to like options and would rather have characters with fewer, but more unique, features than having 3 fighters who (other than subclass choices) seem incredibly generic.

We are even looking into this for races. We like, for instance, the idea that if you played a halfling you would choose to be brave, lucky, or stealthy, without every halfling being all three.

Anyway, you'll have to share how it goes! Do you allow multiclassing, because if you are putting most of the class features at level 1 that makes dipping more enticing...

 

[AverageMojito]

All at level 3. It's not even that hard to justify it fluff-wise. Your level 1 sorcerer is not fully aware of their lineage yet. They know they have powers popping out, and only by adventuring they can really unlock the true. Your level 1 wizard is hardly a specialist by any measure anyway. They'll choose their path when they unlock more lore. Your level 1 fighter is a tough mf, but they need quite some scars before they can actually become a champion/knight/rampant of any sort.

A level 1 character is a fresh adventurer marching into trouble, not glory. Most used (and succesful) cliché in novels and films for a reason.

Multiclass is optional in 5E, and I think it should only be in the DMG with a clear disclaimer: this thing never really worked and you'll do just fine with subclasses for character customization this time around.

 

[jmartkdr2]

One thing I would change if all subclasses were level 3: I would strongly recommend to dm's that pc's be given downtime with access to training at that point, to give narrative room for new stuff to show up. It's weird if you're halfway down a cave and suddenly the sword-swinging tough guy learns magic. It's a little easier to justify him picking up a couple tricks from a local wizard/swordmage/whatever in town because 'he saw that just using his muscles might not be enough and wanted some other options.'

 

[TwoSix]

FYI, I went the other way completely, and in a moment of pure shattered mind, I decided that players would gain most of their features from classes and archetypes at level 1! I thought: are high level features really that powerful and need to be gated behind a high level? I took a good look at Land Stride, and I got my answer.

Further level add more uses of said features, but say a fighter, would gain 1 use of Second Wind, 1 use of Action Surge, 1 use of Indomitable per day, with one more use each 4 levels or so. A champion (taken also at 1st level) also has a crit range of 18-20, 1 extra fighting style and remarkable athlete (revamped because it suck as a feature!). Only extra attacks were left at 5/11/17.

It would seem it is somewhat close to 2e, since I based myself on the class progression of BG2.

100% in agreement with getting all of your features at level 1. (Assuming no level-by-level MCing, though). Leveling just scales your abilities.