Should point buy be discouraged?

[Deadboy]

I guess my group must be special. We roll our characters up without supervision since we're all adults. We cross the street without someone to hold our hand as well.

That was a little unnecessarily insulting, don't you think? It's not like I was being argumentative against your position or stating that point buys were the only way to do things, just what has worked best in my group.

The player in question isn't a juvenile, just one of his draws to RPGs in empowerment. He believes that life is full of disappointment and failure so he wants as little of it as possible in his entertainment. He also tends to not play video games on anything more than the easiest of difficulties. If we want him to bring a character more in line with what everyone else is playing, we either watch his rolls (and deal with him being very unhappy if he doesn't do well) or we point buy. Most of the rest of us are happier with point buy as well.

YMMV.

 

[herrozerro]

I didn't say point buy is bad I am saying the recommend point buys in the DMG with 32 being the highest would have made it next to impossible to build this character.

Just because I prefer rolling does not mean I think point buy is bad and should not be in the game.

Inversely it would also be impossible to build a 6,9,12,5,7,9 character under pointbuy too.

I do have to ask people who use rolling what would you and your group do if you received the numbers listed above? Would you play it or just reroll untill you received something reasonable?

A followup question would be is there an upper limit to what you allow? do you allow characters with 18,18,17,15,17,18 in your games if it were to happen?

The final question is if you reroll the low character but keep the high one isnt that a double standard?

 

[Elf Witch]

Inversely it would also be impossible to build a 6,9,12,5,7,9 character under pointbuy too.

I do have to ask people who use rolling what would you and your group do if you received the numbers listed above? Would you play it or just reroll untill you received something reasonable?

A followup question would be is there an upper limit to what you allow? do you allow characters with 18,18,17,15,17,18 in your games if it were to happen?

The final question is if you reroll the low character but keep the high one isnt that a double standard?

If you roll it you play it warts and all with an exception. That is the chance you take with rolling the same with hit points you can just choose to take half or roll to see if you do better.

The DMG states that a character with modifiers that equal -3 should not be played the stats in your first example come to a -9 or 6 point buy character. The lowest point buy recommended is 15.

So no I would not make anyone play that if they rolled it, that would just be unreasonable and really make the game suck for that person.

Over the years I have noticed that most people averages tend to be around the 32 to 36 point buy when they roll. But we have higher then that and lower.

 

[herrozerro]

So no I would not make anyone play that if they rolled it, that would just be unreasonable and really make the game suck for that person.

Do you have the same reservations for super lucky characters? like the second example?

 

[Elf Witch]

Do you have the same reservations for super lucky characters? like the second example?

No I don't. And before we get into the argument well that is not fair let me say this. I have seen my players play characters that came to a 15 point buy and they didn't complain. Which puts them 17 points under the 32 point buy.

I have seen the players who rolled accept a 3 as a stat and play with it. I have never seen someone who used point buy have anything lower then an 8 in a stat and they do that so they can get an 18.

I am not going to make my players who roll have to give up a fantastic set of rolls just because I don't make them take rolls that makes a character have less then a 15 point buy. Which even the game designers feel should not be allowed.

 

[Aenghus]

I strongly prefer point buy, and think a standard array should be the default, for ease of play for new players . I've seen too many people roll poor stats, or stats that don't allow them to play the concept they want to play.

I expect there will be options for standard array, point buy and random stats. We don't no what sort of ability scores/bonuses will exist, which has a bearing on the whole stat issue.

 

[Elf Witch]

I strongly prefer point buy, and think a standard array should be the default, for ease of play for new players . I've seen too many people roll poor stats, or stats that don't allow them to play the concept they want to play.

I expect there will be options for standard array, point buy and random stats. We don't no what sort of ability scores/bonuses will exist, which has a bearing on the whole stat issue.

Why does anything have to be a default? In a game that is saying its goal is to be modular there should be few default rules.

In the section on rolling the cons you mentioned could be addresses.

 

[foolish_mortals]

maybe in 5th they shouldn't have any instructions on how to generate your ability scores and just leave it up to the game. Maybe at most leave some simple examples people have used over the years.

foolish_mortals

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

While I believe both rolling and point buying are legitimate ways to determine the ability scores of a character, I must say that the whole "rolling for ability scores can thwart my character concept" is absurd, unless you're doing 3d6 in order.

By 3E rules, player's are allowed to reroll a character with less than +1 total modifier and/or no ability higher than 13. Unless your character concept includes something like "my character is strong as an orc and wise as a half-celestial", I don't see the link between rolling and not getting to play what you want.

Before someone mentions characters with MAD, such as paladins and monks, let's remember that point buy can be even worse for them, unless you're playing with a real "OMG! WTF! Sky is the limit!" number of points - rolling gets you much better chance at doing it right in MAD cases.

Cheers,

 

[tuxgeo]

< snip >
Min/maxing is trying to maximize the strengths and minimize the weaknesses. It is an extreme form of optimization. It is often related to power gaming (which I define as playing with an emphasis on either being a powerful character and/or the accumulation of power as defined by the game).
< snip >
I would say that most "role players" do "optimize" to the concept (I use optimize to be, consciously, spending resources to meet a concept. Furthermore, there are degrees of optimization). However, this does not mean, necessarily, maxing out skill bonuses or being the most effective. If the character grew up a a dirt farmer, they may allocate some resources to acknowledge that despite it not being something likely to come up.

Quoted for clarity about what min/maxing is; also, for the optimal concept of optimizing to a concept.

Random stat generation depends on the type of game I want to run.

If I'm playing a grand Epic with little to no character turn over, I want point buy. I want players to think about their character, create a backstory, and play that character for a long time.

If I'm playing a game where I expect high character turn over, I want random stat generation. I want a new character to come into the game rapidly, with little backstory, and have in-game experiences shape their character.

Choosing point-buy or rolling depending on which kind of campaign is going to be played: excellent insight.

Point-buy *was* my preferred system, but now I'm a fan of having Standard Arrays (six or so) that the player can choose from.

And yes, my belief that faster, simpler systems are best has become a fetish. I recognize this.

Regarding this, there was a thread on EN World in 2008 ("months upon a time ago") that asked what some of our favorite 4E 22-point-buy arrays were. Examples were given. Here follows a list of more than six arrays:

Codename
========
HUGELY: 18 14 11 10=10 8 (liked by Turtlejay and gribble)
REALLY: 18 12=12=12 10 8 (liked by mevers)
DEARLY: 17 15 13 10=10 8 (liked by Turtlejay, Stalker0, Holy Bovine, and Dr_Ruminahui)
NEARLY: 17 14=14 10=10 8 (liked by amysrevenge)
YEARLY: 17 14 12=12 10 9 (liked by Holy Bovine)
RICHLY: 16=16 13 11 10 8 (liked by gribble and Akaiku)
COSTLY: 16=16 12=12 10 8 (liked by BagPuss, gribble, mevers, Mr. Wilson, and garyh)
QUIRKY: 16 15 14 11 10 8 (liked by FDM)
WISELY: 16 14=14 13 10 8 (liked by catsclaw227 and mevers)
SIMPLY: 16 14 13 12 11 10 (liked by Amphimir Míriel, Mouseferatu, and Cadfan)
POORLY: 14=14=14 13 12 10 (liked by WayneLigon)

Of the ones above, I like COSTLY and WISELY; but also these:
LATELY: 16 14=14 12 11 8
GRIMLY: 16 14=14 12 10 9
MOSTLY: 16 14=14 11 10=10

That's a list of fourteen different "standard arrays," which is far more than the six Wormwood was talking about.