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5E Should the Hexblade Patron be Banned?

Should the Hexblade Patron be Banned?


  • Total voters
    140
  • Poll closed .

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I don't care for them. It creates a single stat character who can do a lot of things. The goodies are so front-loaded it becomes an overly attractive dip. One level is all you need to solve the MADness of a Paladin or martial Bard.

This isnt 3E. A 1 level dip is significant in 5E and you feel the negative impacts of that dip quite often in actual play (unlike in 3E). Warlock doesnt stack with any other caster for spells per day, and if you're more melee orientated, it delays extra attack by an entire level.

I'd much rather be playing a Paladin 5, Bard 5 or Sorcerer 5 over a Hexblade 1/ Paladin 4 or a Hexblade 1/ Sorcerer 4 or Hexblade 1/ Bard 4 for example.

I've lost track of the amount of players that fell into the Sor-lock M/C trap, and spent the rest of the campaign looking over enviously at the single classed Wizard or Sorcerer getting access to the really good spells a level (or two) earlier (which is several sessions earlier in actual play).
 

This isnt 3E. A 1 level dip is significant in 5E and you feel the negative impacts of that dip quite often in actual play (unlike in 3E). Warlock doesnt stack with any other caster for spells per day, and if you're more melee orientated, it delays extra attack by an entire level.

I'd much rather be playing a Paladin 5, Bard 5 or Sorcerer 5 over a Hexblade 1/ Paladin 4 or a Hexblade 1/ Sorcerer 4 or Hexblade 1/ Bard 4 for example.

I've lost track of the amount of players that fell into the Sor-lock M/C trap, and spent the rest of the campaign looking over enviously at the single classed Wizard or Sorcerer getting access to the really good spells a level (or two) earlier (which is several sessions earlier in actual play).

Generally speaking, there are certain levels, where the single class character is ahead and level where the multiclass is ahead. Often powergamers fall into the "at level 10" I will be unbeatable and forget that they need to get there first.

I learned to have a plan for my characters but I decide from level to level what I do, depending on what happened in the adventure and what is needed at that point.
 

I've lost track of the amount of players that fell into the Sor-lock M/C trap, and spent the rest of the campaign looking over enviously at the single classed Wizard or Sorcerer getting access to the really good spells a level (or two) earlier (which is several sessions earlier in actual play).
Yeah. Things are not nearly as bad as 3.5, but losing caster levels is a big deal. Sometimes the trade can be worth it, but it's a very painful choice to make.
 

delph

Explorer
I was pushed into Hexblade 2/ Shadow Sorcerer 4 by my group - there wasn't any full caster, only one ranger. Then monk, fighter, blood hunter, rogue... And I was planning to go hexblade pact of blade melee but didnť know what others want to play... and now I'm PEW PEW EB blaster. Hex + Curse + AB + Eldritch spear + metamagic dominate battlefield. 1d10+1d6+7 with two beams do lot of damage. Quickened even more.
With darkness from sorcery points, I needn't devil sight, and I have elven accuracy too...
I'm not so spell fountain as wizard could be and our party need, but still better than pure hexblade. On Sunday I will continue with pew pew EB to one room where are lying two companions and another two run trough to next floor. And there are mechanical undead monsters never going out... :D
 


TwoSix

Unserious gamer
Supporter
Its not just caster levels; it's also delaying extra attack by a whole level for martials.
I don't disagree, but you can mitigate that somewhat for that level by taking BB or GFB.

Ultimately, I don't see a hexblade dip as being nearly good enough to justify banning it. It would be nice if it wasn't the most obvious warlock subclass for a dip, but that can be fixed by simply making some of the other subclasses better.
 

I don't disagree, but you can mitigate that somewhat for that level by taking BB or GFB.

I've done just this but it still feels sucky.

One attack with GFB at 5th level, just isnt the same as swinging that greatsword twice. Moreso on a Paladin thanks to 2 smites being better than one.

Considering a Paladin can dump Dexterity and Intelligence (heavy armor), and still need Strength to wear that heavy armor, I dont see the MAD as being an issue for them to justify the dip. Ditto Bards, and ditto Sorcerers (each for different reasons).

Compare a Paladin (default array, +2 Charisma at 4th) Vuman at 5th level: Str 16, Dex 8, Con 14, Wis 12, Int 10, Cha 16.

If he's dumping Strength to instead focus on Charisma via a Hexblade dip, he's not using heavy armor (or likely even medium armor) due to encumbrance, meaning he needs a good Dex now. His AC is likely worse than that of the above single classed Paladin, he misses out on extra attack, and likely only has a hit bonus of +1 higher than the Strength based single class paladin to make up for it.

He has access to shield, a recharching 1st level slot for smites, and a better ranged attack with EB, but that's really more of a fallback option; his main schtick is getting in someone's face and smiting them dead, which the single classed Paladin simply just does a whole lot better.
 

TwoSix

Unserious gamer
Supporter
I've done just this but it still feels sucky.

One attack with GFB at 5th level, just isnt the same as swinging that greatsword twice. Moreso on a Paladin thanks to 2 smites being better than one.

Considering a Paladin can dump Dexterity and Intelligence (heavy armor), and still need Strength to wear that heavy armor, I dont see the MAD as being an issue for them to justify the dip. Ditto Bards, and ditto Sorcerers (each for different reasons).

Compare a Paladin (default array, +2 Charisma at 4th) Vuman at 5th level: Str 16, Dex 8, Con 14, Wis 12, Int 10, Cha 16.

If he's dumping Strength to instead focus on Charisma via a Hexblade dip, he's not using heavy armor (or likely even medium armor) due to encumbrance, meaning he needs a good Dex now. His AC is likely worse than that of the above single classed Paladin, he misses out on extra attack, and likely only has a hit bonus of +1 higher than the Strength based single class paladin to make up for it.

He has access to shield, a recharching 1st level slot for smites, and a better ranged attack with EB, but that's really more of a fallback option; his main schtick is getting in someone's face and smiting them dead, which the single classed Paladin simply just does a whole lot better.
Yea, you're basically weighing the tradeoff between going 20 Str 16 Cha and 15 Str (or 14 Dex) and 20 Cha. And the big benefit for the 20 Cha is the extra +2 to saves. (Paladin spell save DC seems minor.) I don't know if that's worth constantly missing one of your latest and greatest class features. It's close enough to be discussion worthy, which feels like good enough balance to me.
 

Yea, you're basically weighing the tradeoff between going 20 Str 16 Cha and 15 Str (or 14 Dex) and 20 Cha.

Im happy with simply raising Charisma to 20 at 8th and 12th level, and leaving Str at 16. You have enough room to get Strength to 20 as well with your final two ASI's (or you could just get your hands on a belt of giant strength presuming magic items are a thing).

Paladins have a few tricks up their sleeves to hit stuff more often; Ancients can ensnare, Vengeance has at will advantage each short rest, and Devotion can add Charisma to hit for a minute.

As the single classed paladin advances, it also gets improved divine smite earlier, divine grace earlier and higher level spells known earlier.

I've seen it before; the disappointed MC player who though he was onto something with a 1 level dip, only to find out in actual play it kind of sucked being a whole level behind on the good stuff.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
This isnt 3E. A 1 level dip is significant in 5E and you feel the negative impacts of that dip quite often in actual play (unlike in 3E). Warlock doesnt stack with any other caster for spells per day, and if you're more melee orientated, it delays extra attack by an entire level.

I'd much rather be playing a Paladin 5, Bard 5 or Sorcerer 5 over a Hexblade 1/ Paladin 4 or a Hexblade 1/ Sorcerer 4 or Hexblade 1/ Bard 4 for example.

I've lost track of the amount of players that fell into the Sor-lock M/C trap, and spent the rest of the campaign looking over enviously at the single classed Wizard or Sorcerer getting access to the really good spells a level (or two) earlier (which is several sessions earlier in actual play).
This is very true. MC has to be done with great care - you need synergy and you need to think carefully about when to MC. A lot of people recommend delaying it until level 6 so you can get your big level 5 power bump. I used to be convinced that some MC combo were OP, but now I am not so sure because of, as you say, the delays before the class combo really turns "on". The delays in getting ASI can also be painful.

Ironically, the warlock is less affected by this because of the power of EB - cantrips scale on character level, not class level, so a level 3/3 warlock sorcerer can pew-pew pretty decently. However, the roleplaying challenges of the warlock multi-class are not insignificant, especially when it comes to paladin, clerics etc.
 

Ironically, the warlock is less affected by this because of the power of EB - cantrips scale on character level, not class level, so a level 3/3 warlock sorcerer can pew-pew pretty decently.

Id still rather be a Sorcerer 6 though. Having 2-4 3rd level spells (known) at your disposal is far more game changing than a better at will damage via EB.

A Red dragon Sorcerer of 6th level has Fireball, Counterspell, Scorching ray, Shield, Fly (and 2 more spells) has 6 SP (and can create 4th level slots) and 4/3/2 slots.

His at-will is still a decent 2d10+Cha to damage with Firebolt, and he can Quicken a second one for 2SP in a pinch as well.

4th level spells known (Banishment and Polymorph and others) are also just a level away.

Dunno; I just nearly always see these Sorlock or Hexblade dip builds getting talked about, but in actual practice (when played next to a single classed character) I generally just see envy and frequent requests to 'do-over' the MC PC for a single classed PC.
 

Urriak Uruk

Debate fuels my Fire
Shadow of Moil and armor of agathy could be a way to make her a lot less fragile...

... and then you are out of spell slots :/

Considering this thread is "The Hexblade should be banned!" I don't think I'm recommending more ways for her to overcame her one big flaw...
 





To be fair extra attack is a massive deal. It's an exponential increase in DPR.
It is a big deal, but it's only one pillar. An important pillar, certainly, since being dead means you can't do the other two. But the general assumption of the game is winning most battles, since that's the way the attrition model works. So being able to impact multiple pillars is more valuable on average.
 

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