Should the keen quality even exist?

[FreeTheSlaves]

This is a tangent thread from Feats - Imp Crit + Keen = ??? .

The basic premise is that under the revised core rules keen & improved critical do not stack; however keen is a +1 ability for edged weapons while improved critical is a feat with a +8 bab requirement. My thought is that improved critical is a weak feat because keen is too cheap.

Improved critical under the revised rules is of a premium value only when:
1) A keen weapon is not yet available or
2) When the character wants a total +10 weapon in other abilities (+5 vorpal) while still wanting the improved threat range.

Under the more common circumstances, keen is the logical & efficient choice than the improved critical feat, which strikes me as wrong.

 

[the Jester]

Very good points. Keen might serve better as a +2 quality.

Better yet, let 'em stack again.

 

[Goolpsy]

Keen is keen... the weapon is Sharper than ever, better at dealing additional damage..
Improve Critical is a feat for those people who cant get enought, who use their abilities to make the weapon even deadlier...

By making this thread i imidiatly think of "Fly is only a level 3 spell"
Should the normal movement get faster or should Fly get higher level? since a flying person can fly faster than the person walks :S
Oh, theres a nonEpic feat improving ones speed by 10 ft... Isn't that awefully weak when you have acces to the fly spell at this early point?


Really, Keen and improved Critical is exactly where they are meant to be. Improved Critical is made as one of those "high level Fighter feats" And thats were it belong.

And as shown on several occasions, Keen is even weak for a +1 Ability, making it a +2 or +3 Renders it completely useless....

Have Fun

 

[Gez]

One rant of Sean that I actually wholeheartedly agree with:
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/keenimprovedcritstacking.html
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/keen_medium.html

Keen is a very weak enhancement, actually. An energy damage (such as flaming) is much better. In fact, a simple straight +1 is better.

 

[Vurt]

The keen property only affects one weapon. Improved Critical (longsword) allows a fighter to pick any longsword out of his golfbag, or indeed any longsword looted off of the body of a fallen foe, and benefit from the improved threat range.

There is still room for both options, depending on a campaign's play style.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Li Shenron]

The keen property only affects one weapon. Improved Critical (longsword) allows a fighter to pick any longsword out of his golfbag, or indeed any longsword looted off of the body of a fallen foe, and benefit from the improved threat range.

There is still room for both options, depending on a campaign's play style.

Cheers,
Vurt

Improved Critical ALSO works on one weapon only.

edit: sorry, I see what you mean!

Anyway I agree that Keen is much a better choice for anyone (cheap and available earlier) if you're playing in a game where you use the DMG suggestion to have everything magical available in a town large enough. Otherwise, the feat may be the only option...

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Another thing of note:

You can take Improved Crit (greatclub), but you can't buy a keen greatclub.

 

[JimAde]

Another thing of note:

You can take Improved Crit (greatclub), but you can't buy a keen greatclub.

I believe there is an equivalent enhancement for bludgeoning weapons (crushing, maybe?) Sorry I've forgotten which book it's in.

 

[Gez]

Impact. Impact weapons are the equivalent of keen. IIRC, this property was first introduced in Magic of Faerûn.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Keen is a very weak enhancement, actually. An energy damage (such as flaming) is much better. In fact, a simple straight +1 is better.

I agree, keen only beats +1 when the normal attack belts out so much damage that the <10% increase in damage outweighs the 5% increase in to hit & flat +1 damage bonus. Likely keen needs even more raw damage output to beat energy weapons.