D&D 5E Should the next edition of D&D promote more equality?

[Morrus]

The remaking of a game's artwork in order to fufil an ideal about the way society should be perceived really is political propaganda.

Well, you can repeat it, and I can say "no it isn't" again, but that's gonna get tedious for both of us pretty fast! I understand what you said; I strongly disagree with it. I mean, if you want to portray "being inclusive" as "removing white people" that's your prerogative. But you won't find me agreeing any time soon.

I'll repeat my position, though -- I would rather see artwork which invited women, not which makes them feel unwelcome. What I find disturbing in threads like this isn't the folks who don't get that the artwork makes women feel unwelcome, it's the ones that do understand that and want it to continue anyway.

It's really simple: I want more women in gaming. Therefore I want gaming to stop discouraging women through its choices. I couldn't give a damn about representative depictions of society; I just want fewer women to be put off gaming by the choices made by middle aged white men. Indeed, I see that as nothing more than ordinary, decent behaviour.

 

[mythago]

All the time? Like, even in their wizard study, they cannot wear comfy clothing like silk robes, as do their male counterparts? How about in an urban setting, in a social gathering of nobility and court intrigue. Is it okay for women to be...women, then? I guess so long as they're flat chested and wearing super baggy shirts, they'll be acceptable. I wonder how well-endowed women would feel if you told them they can't wear tight clothes in the summer time. Maybe I went to sleep last night and woke up in Dubai or something ..//scratches head

Gorgoroth, you do realize that some of the people you are talking to in this thread *are* women? And that maybe it's a little silly to suggest that if female PCs and NPCs aren't dressed up as Victoria's Secret models, they're either not dressed like women or they're in burqas?

If we were just talking about how gaming art is perfectly fine because it merely reflects what "people" like to look at, then we'd be pointing to the many, many examples in gaming art of sexy incubuses ("Isn't it OK for them to wear a codpiece and not plate mail?!"), scantily-clad hot male slaves and mermen dressed only in strategically-placed clumps of seaweed. We'd be asking why that group of Important Nobles is lounging around in 'comfy' silk robes that just happens to show off their packages. We'd wonder why that rogue looks like a Tom of Finland character, and why his leather armor is basically assless chaps and a vest.

(Also, really, when the only example anyone can bring up, over and over again, is "But Conan is half-naked!", vs. metric frack tons of sexy succubuses and temptresses, it's not exactly supporting the idea you'd like it to show.)

I could go on, but it's late, and I've made my point.

You've made a point, but not the one you think you made.

 

[kingius]

It's really simple: I want more women in gaming. Therefore I want gaming to stop discouraging women through its choices.

D&D's artwork has already been purged of images offensive to women. You seem to arguing from a 1974 version of D&D through to 2nd edition D&D in the 90s point of view. 3E starts covering women up and 4E is the most censored. So that's already been achieved. What's at stake here is whether D&D's artwork needs to represent the reality of its user base or not. Obviously, I say not. But you (and others) will make out that it's not as simple as that (even though it is).

There is no evidence at all that western RPG's that depict white folk put anyone off playing of any race, but don't let that stop you putting out the myth that it is doing. The assumption that a game which shows white folk in its artwork can't be played by someone of another race is itself somewhat racist, when you think about it. A white man can enjoy a Will Smith movie just fine, we don't need to somehow 'white' him up to get it, do we.

 

[Obryn]

Reading some of the people quoting me on here does reinforce that a logical arguement is not going to work. If wizards want to enforce a lack of white folk in their artwork to try and fix a problem that doesn't exist, in line with a liberal political agenda of promoting cultural diversity across all mediums, well it won't be the existing fans that really have a say in it. It's going to happen just the same as government forces it to happen in all government documenation and resources. Fantasy, fans and logic be damned.

Oh no! I've been discovered as a driver of a liberal political agenda working for the government's RPG political correctness assimilation program!

ABORT MISSION! WE ARE WASHING THE DOG! I REPEAT, WE ARE WASHING THE DOG!

 

[kingius]

Oh no! I've been discovered as a driver of a liberal political agenda working for the government's RPG political correctness assimilation program!

I've first hand experience of political correctness, I used to develop eLearning resources for government clients, so I do know what I'm talking about here. I'm not saying you are government, I'm saying the situation here is basically the same; pretty soon they'll have to be disabled people depicted in D&D artwork because, well, it's putting people in wheel chairs off playing. This is way they think, this is the agenda at play.

 

[Obryn]

I've first hand experience of political correctness, I used to develop eLearning resources for government clients, so I do know what I'm talking about here. I'm not saying you are government, I'm saying the situation here is basically the same; pretty soon they'll have to be disabled people depicted in D&D artwork because, well, it's putting people in wheel chairs off playing. This is way they think, this is the agenda at play.

Who is "they"? I am me, not "they."

-O

 

[Morrus]

D&D's artwork has already been purged of images offensive to women. You seem to arguing from a 1974 version of D&D through to 2nd edition D&D in the 90s point of view. 3E starts covering women up and 4E is the most censored. So that's already been achieved.

The thread's about D&D Next, which doesn't exist yet. Unless you have some inside information on the art commissions?

Yeah, I agree that probably it'll be just fine. I don't see why we shouldn't talk about it, though; you don't have to if you don't want to. And there are plenty of other games other than D&D, so it's an issue bigger than just one game. Indeed, D&D has never really been the biggest example.

What's at stake here is whether D&D's artwork needs to represent the reality of its user base or not. Obviously, I say not. But you (and others) will make out that it's not as simple as that (even though it is).

That's not even close to what I'm saying. Clearly I haven't been clear enough. I'm saying that I would like the artwork to not discourage women from gaming. Not whatever it is you say I'm saying.

There is no evidence at all that western RPG's that depict white folk put anyone off playing of any race, but don't let that stop you putting out the myth that it is doing. The assumption that a game which shows white folk in its artwork can't be played by someone of another race is itself somewhat racist, when you think about it. A white man can enjoy a Will Smith movie just fine, we don't need to somehow 'white' him up to get it, do we.

Are you still replying to me? I haven't mentioned race. Though I would personally enjoy a more varied depiction because that's more interesting to me.

 

[Obryn]

D&D's artwork has already been purged of images offensive to women. You seem to arguing from a 1974 version of D&D through to 2nd edition D&D in the 90s point of view. 3E starts covering women up and 4E is the most censored. So that's already been achieved. What's at stake here is whether D&D's artwork needs to represent the reality of its user base or not. Obviously, I say not. But you (and others) will make out that it's not as simple as that (even though it is).

There is no evidence at all that western RPG's that depict white folk put anyone off playing of any race, but don't let that stop you putting out the myth that it is doing. The assumption that a game which shows white folk in its artwork can't be played by someone of another race is itself somewhat racist, when you think about it. A white man can enjoy a Will Smith movie just fine, we don't need to somehow 'white' him up to get it, do we.

Let's go back to see all the ways you're wrong.

First, "censored." Who or what has censored D&D art?

Second, D&D has not been "purged" of art which objectifies women, from even a cursory look. See some of the examples above, in this thread. Then the Hawkeye Initiative.

Third, we're heading right over to, "people who think there's some racism issues with only having white dudes in D&D art are the REAL racists" logic and demanding evidence that exists (and is publicly available) in other fields like advertising.

-O

 

[kingius]

The thread's about D&D Next, which doesn't exist yet.

You can't talk about D&D Next without some knowledge of prior editions of D&D... if you don't have that, why are you trying to steer the product to your way of thinking? This thread is for fans to state their preferences for the future direction of the product that they love.

I bring up race because this thread is about race primarily. Sexism in D&D is a dealt with problem, it is extremely unlikely that Wizards will go back to an older school depiction of women (i.e. were not in the 70s any more and all that goes with that). Back in the 90s this was a real problem, but it's been solved already. Go do some google searches on women depicted in D&D to see the comparisons. Today, even the Harpy is drawn covered up, mermaids have appropriate PG angles etc etc.

So that leaves race. 4E and 3E don't really tackle this very well, although 4E tries to. Clearly, D&D Next is going to go further, but the real question is... why? Considering that D&D is fantasy and not real, considering that D&D is played by people of all races, considering that D&D depicts and features fantasy races, should it really matter? Well to some it does. Some people just don't want to see white folk when they open a book up, I guess. But considering that D&D is a western RPG it would look kind of commical if everybody you saw was oriental, wouldn't it.

Key to understanding D&D is to remember: 1) it's fantasy 2) it's not representing the user base and 3) it's resilient because of these. If the aim is to kill D&D, by all means, change it's artwork to coloured dwarves, oriental halflings and get some elves in wheel chairs. For D&D to survive it needs to stay out of these highly political issues and just be what it set out to be: a fantasy world toolkit that is a break from reality.

 

[kingius]

First, "censored." Who or what has censored D&D art?

See the depiction of the harpy over the editions to see the censorship. I'm not saying we need to see boobies when we open our D&D rulebooks, I'm saying someone at TSR and at Wizards made a decision to not continue that trend (i.e. censor the !). And yes, D&D has been purged of this artwork. Just look in the Monstrous Manual from AD&D 1e and compare to 3e and 4e to understand a huge effort has gone into removing 'bad images'.

Edit - In fact, one issue of Fight On!, which deals with old school roleplaying OSR, actually has an article where the writer argues to bring this back because it is 'old school'. Worth a look if you are interested. I'm not with him on his definition of old school though, which for me is more about freeform sandboxes and rules light freedoms in play than it is about nudity.