Shouldn't Miracle have an XP component?

[Laslo Tremaine]

Wipes a tear from his eye...

I justed wanted to add, that I have found this entire thread to be highly entertaining!

Keep up the good work gentlemen!

 

[kreynolds]

I think you need to look at who is the one flaming who...

I didn't anything other than "You are mistaken" and rynolds goes off and says that I should put my foot in my mouth!!!

Get YOUR facts straight before YOU accuse ME of FLAMING anyone!!!

I could care less what any distracters actually think; it just shows your LACK of LOGIC.

I am in the 98% as per my educational aptitude score here and I SERIOUSLY doubt any of you can compare... (HOWS THAT FOR A FLAME)

I am not backpedaling at all; I merely have to REDUCE my thoughts to YOUR level of understanding.

Enough is enough...

Like I said, I don't care what you (! $! _$)*!_$* people who are saying that I STARTED the FLAMES) think...

I can stoop no lower in trying to IMPART my thoughts as anywhere lower then here I would surely be FEEBLEMINDED!!!

Nope.

 

[Gromm]

"You don't so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your diety intercede. The DM then determines the particular effect of the miracle."

Sure it can replicate any spell with no XP cost. Can you pick what spell you want? Well no. Naming a spell doesn't do much good either unless your god decides he wants to give it to you.

As far as stat bonuses, I don't see anything in the spell description that says it can do that so you can't (Tome prereqs are irrelevant, and only there to keep Tome construction from being a "wizards only" thing).

Wish does what you want all the time without fail, miracle does something good, but its not infallible and its likely to annoy your god if you do it for anything unimportant (like say anything you could do with one of your own spells).

Its a good spell, but you can't use it to cast level 7 wizard spells at will. Unless you want to get less and less of a result until your god is giving you 1st level spells for each miracle.

 

[Caliban]

I am in the 98% as per my educational aptitude score here and I SERIOUSLY doubt any of you can compare... (HOWS THAT FOR A FLAME)

Hmm... I remember those tests, they were a joke. This is nothing to brag about.

(FYI: I was consistently in the 98 or 99 percentile on several different educational aptitude tests taken while I was in different schools in different states.)

For what it's worth, in my opinion miracle cannot grant an inherent stat increase by itself. It has to be used to create a tome/manual for that. It's one of the few perks wish has over miracle.

 

[Al]

This is very entertaining, but I've actually reached the juncture whereby I can't tell whether this is a troll or not.

If not, I'd like to offer some advice to nwn_deadman: your case is not being helped by RANTING, calling PEOPLE STUPID and using triple exclamation marks!!!

Everyone on this board posting is probably highly intelligent- but a few are slightly stubborn.

As to the post itself, follow the path of this logic:

A Miracle is a prerequisite for the creation of a Tome of X, which grants an inherent ability score bonus. At no point does it actually state that miracle is cast during its creation- therefore, it is implicit that a cleric whom can request miracles of his deity has reached a power level such that his deity will aid him in the creation of a magical item. In return, the caster must pay 5000XP per inherent bonus increase.
At no point in the DMG does it states that having the appropriate prerequisite spell means that the spell is cast during the creation- ergo, it is likely that Miracle is not cast during the manufacture of the book in question- but that the fact that the cleric has access to Miracle means that he has the capability to craft the book.

The second counter-argument is that the spell prerequisite does not duplicate the item when the spell is cast normally. There are a myriad of strong examples listed already, so I won't bother to reiterate them.

nwn: And if you were thinking of insulting me and decrying my lack of logic, then I shall reply when I have my results back from the UK International Debating Team Trials.

 

[kreynolds]

- but a few are slightly stubborn.

Hehe. He's talkin' about me here. I'm not stubborn though. I just won the argument before it even began.

A Miracle is a prerequisite for the creation of a Tome of X, which grants an inherent ability score bonus. At no point does it actually state that miracle is cast during its creation- therefore, it is implicit that a cleric whom can request miracles of his deity has reached a power level such that his deity will aid him in the creation of a magical item. In return, the caster must pay 5000XP per inherent bonus increase.
At no point in the DMG does it states that having the appropriate prerequisite spell means that the spell is cast during the creation- ergo, it is likely that Miracle is not cast during the manufacture of the book in question- but that the fact that the cleric has access to Miracle means that he has the capability to craft the book.

You might wanna hold off on those debate team results there. First, you always cast a prereq spell during the creation of a magic item, once a day for each and every day you are working on the item, until it's done. Second, the XP you pay for the item is 1/25 the base price of the finished item.

It's possible you're just thinking out of the box and I missed it. If that's the case, I retract my argument. If that's not the case, whoa, we need to keep working on this miracle thing.

 

[Caliban]

You might wanna hold off on those debate team results there. First, you always cast a prereq spell during the creation of a magic item, once a day for each and every day you are working on the item, until it's done.

I'm afraid this is incorrect keynolds. You don't actually cast the spell while you are creating the item. You only need to have it prepared to be cast each day, and the spell slot is used, but it's not actually cast. (If you are using a charged item or a scroll to provide the spell, it will take one charge or scroll per day of creation.) You don't pay any XP or material component cost for the spells used to create the item, you only pay the costs for any spells the item actually casts.

Look at the DMG, page 241-242, and the individual creation entries for each item. They use a ring of three wishes as an example. The base price of the ring is 22,950 gp, meaning it takes 23 days to create. If you had to cast the wish spell 23 times while creating it, it would cost you an additional 115,000 xp (5,000 xp per casting of wish). Instead it only costs an extra 15,000 xp (for the three wish spells the ring actually casts). The final cost is also increased by 5 gp per extra XP.

Second, the XP you pay for the item is 1/25 the base price of the finished item.

Plus the XP cost of any spells the item actually casts. (see above)

 

[kreynolds]

I'm afraid this is incorrect keynolds.

No it's not. It may have been a crappy way of phrasing my explanation, but oh well. You're right, you don't cast the spell, it just needs to be prepared in a slot and the slot is emptied each day. As far as XP, I wasn't talking about spending the XP from the spell. I was talking about spending the XP for making the item in the end. That's kinda why I mentioned this about XP, the only time I ever mentioned XP actually.

Second, the XP you pay for the item is 1/25 the base price of the finished item.

Trust me. I know how this works. I just worded it poorly.

 

[Anders]

I think all of you who try to define what a miracle can and can not do, are forgetting something.

The DM makes the call.

I lead a game with epic level clerics in the group where miracle-tossing have become the standard routine procedure in each and every other situation.
To evaluate what my players can do I'll have to check on the cleric's relationship with her deity and figure out if she's worth the cake she yelled so frantically for.
If I deem she is, then the reality of the miracle kicks in.

I for one, judge the miracle spell to be the most powerful spell in the whole game. Most lower level spells can be duplicated (no XP charge), and almost anything else can be done for a mere 5.000 XP.

In this way, miracle is clearly superior to wish in every way. Why?, deities can grant stuff mortal beardwearers in woman's clothing can never dream of, and thus by imparting just a slight bit of this godly souvereignity to a epic cleric, that cleric, she can raise one of her abilities* if it fits the story.

*In fact, raising one ability or another, is not that a big deal, really. Far too many of you think of D&D like some off-shot from the CPU (like Diablo) in which slaying monsters actually makes the character better at Profession (gardener), instead of it as a tool (as in tool, not some law to follow to the letter).

So, I think you are jumping on this kid without really thinking about it. He started this topic with his particular statement (which we are free to judge right or wrong by our own standards, of course), and I want to add in something....

He's absolutely right*.


___________
*But then again so are you (on the subjective level of nonsense-arguing).

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Of course the DM can make the call, but that does not change one word in the PH.

The way you have described Miracle is clearly more powerful than a 9th level spell. Bearded women in dresses can cast 9th level spells, but can't copy your version of Miracle. So if you want to let Miracle be more powerful than a 9th level spell in you epic level game, Cool!!. But that has not impact on the true ability of the 9th level spell Miracle.