D&D General Simulacrum and then True Polymorph

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

The way I see it is that when you polymorph yourself you lose all your normal features, although you can still use them if the new form has those. Say, a Wizard True Polymorphs into a Ki-Rin, they won't have their Wizard spellcasting, but can use the Ki-Rin's Cleric spellcasting.

I'm more in the 'you gain the physical form and abilities but not the 'magical ones'' camp.

 

[Fanaelialae]

So here's the pertanent text from Roll20:

That last part, in bold is critical. So if you transform into an elf, elves can cast spells (they have hands and can speak) so I would say they can. Maybe that part is from an errata that your print version doesn't have? Or do we just read it that differently?

I see that text in True Polymorph, but Polymorph is phrased without that last part (at least in my PHB, you might be correct that it's errata).

I agree that if you're True Polymorphed you can use any spellcasting abilities of the creature type (such as the aforementioned Ki Rin).

I'm not so sure about Polymorph, though it's fairly moot. I can't think of any beasts that have innate spellcasting.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

The Deep Rothé can cast Dancing Lights with innate spellcasting, although that seems to be the only beast with one.

 

[Winterhaven]

I thought if you cast true polymorph that you did not have access to your spells. So no bard spells until I drop the true polymorph. But if I change myself into a normal archmage, CR 12. I get his spells. Is that not correct?

 

[James Gasik]

I thought if you cast true polymorph that you did not have access to your spells. So no bard spells until I drop the true polymorph. But if I change myself into a normal archmage, CR 12. I get his spells. Is that not correct?

Unclear. Technically, by strict letter of the rules, you would gain the archmage's statistics and that would include his spellcasting. However, many DM's would point out (and in fact, someone did already, upthread) that "archmage" isn't really a monster- it's a stand in for a generic NPC of no particular race.

So it would be like looking at your friend Bob the Human Fighter and saying "I want to True Polymorph into him!".

Because True Polymorph says you can cast spells if the form you take is capable of that action, what's left unclear is does that mean YOUR spells, the Innate spellcasting of the form, if any, or ANY spellcasting of whatever you turn into.

 

[Oofta]

True polymorph is a bit of a mess. What defines a creature? Is an archmage a creature or just a human or other species that has learned how to do magic? I rule that it's the latter, that an archmage is just a humanoid with special training. There are still some powerful creatures you can turn into, any number of fiends have the inherent ability to cast spells. But an archmage is just a humanoid with training, training you don't automatically get.

I also rule that if the new creature cast whatever spells the creature being polymorphed had if they gained those spells from class levels. That does assume that they can meet the component requirements including material (which only matters in the short term, of course).

Honestly though, I make it clear to my players that if they try to do truly cheesy things I'll just say no. On the other hand, the enemy won't exploit edge cases either. In the case of simulacrum and true polymorph it's cheese and it's not gouda.

 

[Stalker0]

First, welcome to the forum!

Interesting question. I'll quote the spells for reference:

Spoiler: Simulacrum

View attachment 270306

Spoiler: True Polymorph

View attachment 270307

It would really depend on the DM since 5E is all about "rulings" instead of rules.

I would not allow it since the Simulacrum is part creature/part illusion. While Simulacrum does say "otherwise be affected as a normal creature," it is not a creature, which is the requirement for True Polymorph. Additionally, since the Simulacrum is ice/snow, it is partially an object, but obviously a magical object, so True Polymorph would not work in that way, either.

Now, if a DM did rule it was possible, as a player I wouldn't dispute it either. So, I'll respond as if it was ruled to be possible:


Correct. Simulacrum states "Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates."


No, it would not be an archmage. It would be a 19th level bard--assuming you used the wish to make a Simulacrum of yourself.


Again, I would rule "No" because even with True Polymorph allowed, it states "It retains its alignment and personality." Simulacrum's cannot learn or advance or replenish spells, so it still wouldn't be able to IMO.


This is more along the lines of using True Polymorph to change an object into a creature. Once permanent, "you no longer control the creature. It might remain friendly to you, depending on how you have treated it."

Whether or not you could then do it again would depend on how the DM has it react.

It's an interesting concept...

While simulacrum mentions an illusory duplicate, it does later in the spell specifically note it as a “creature”.

 

[jtylerk]

A wizard/archmage is a class, not a creature, so I would rule one cannot polymorph (or shapechange) into a wizard or any other class. Now a creature with innate spell casting abilities would be fine.

 

[Warforged DK]

I read it as:

1. Can't speak.
2. Can't cast spells.
3. Can't take any other action that requires hands or speech.

But like I said, the language isn't as clear as it could be, so you could read it as:

... can't cast spells... that require hands or speech.

Which would support your ruling.

You're missing the final clause of that sentence which modifies the entire premise.
1- The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and
a- it can't speak,
b- cast spells, or
c- take any other action that requires hands or speech;
2- unless its new form is capable of such actions.
If you polymorph a humanoid into a Bear, it can't speak, cast spells, or take any action that requires hands or speech, because the Bear isn't capable of such actions ( using hands or speaking).
If you polymorph a humanoid into another humanoid, say dwarf into goblin, the new form (goblin) IS capable of speaking, casting spells and taking other actions that require hands or speech, so the dwarf polymorphed into goblin may cast spells IF the new form has spells in its stat block.

 

[Warforged DK]

A wizard/archmage is a class, not a creature, so I would rule one cannot polymorph (or shapechange) into a wizard or any other class. Now a creature with innate spell casting abilities would be fine.

Wizard is a class. Archmage is a creature. Seep page 342 MM. Medium humanoid, any race, any alignment. CR 12. it is capable of speaking, using hands AND has spells.
If true Polymorphed into an Archmage, you get those spells listed in its stat block, nothing more.
True Polymorph doesn't say anything about the ability to learn new spells, and neither does the Archmage Stat Block.
Unless there's a rule about it elsewhere in the PHB, DMG or MM that I'm unaware of, the ability to learn new spells falls under one of two options and whether your DM is permissive or restrictive in rulings.
1- Nothing says you can't learn new spells, so you can learn new spells.
2- Nothing says you can learn new spells, so you can't learn new spells.

(on a side note, all these rules lawyering stuff really reminds me of my Legislation class in Law school. breaking down clauses and logically organizing them to determine legislative intent. relying on the correct use of oxford commas to include or exclude categories.)