D&D 5E (2024) Skeleton Familiar plus Net = Fisher of Men

[ECMO3]

would a familiar that has been affected by the warlock invocation investment of the chain master use the specific rule of "Your Save DC. If the familiar forces a creature to make a saving throw, it uses your spell save DC." to override the net save DC with your spell save DC while attacking with a net? it seems RAW at least.

RAW a Skeleton can take the attack action, so it can throw a net.

The save is debatable, but I don't think so. A net is adventuring gear with its own save (based on the thrower's dexterity). I think this would be like using your save DC if it dropped caltrops or used a wand or pushed it into a spirit guardians cast by someone else.

 

[Gorck]

RAW a Skeleton can take the attack action, so it can throw a net.

The save is debatable, but I don't think so. A net is adventuring gear with its own save (based on the thrower's dexterity). I think this would be like using your save DC if it dropped caltrops or used a wand or pushed it into a spirit guardians cast by someone else.

I agree about the save. Specific beats general, and in this case, the net is listed with a specific DC.

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

I agree about the save. Specific beats general, and in this case, the net is listed with a specific DC.

The general rule when using a net is the listed DC. The specific one when used by the skeleton familiar is the warlock's DC.

 

[BigMac75]

FWIW - Grim Hollow has a Gladiator Net that is an actual weapon and does some damage.

Also there is a Flame Tongue version of it...

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The general rule when using a net is the listed DC. The specific one when used by the skeleton familiar is the warlock's DC.

They are both specific rules. There is no general rule for that situation.

 

[Gorck]

The general rule when using a net is the listed DC. The specific one when used by the skeleton familiar is the warlock's DC.

I would consider it the opposite. The Warlock’s save DC is general because it is for ANY saving throw the familiar forces. The net, OTOH, has a DC that is specific to using that particular item.

 

[abolitionrpg]

I would consider it the opposite. The Warlock’s save DC is general because it is for ANY saving throw the familiar forces. The net, OTOH, has a DC that is specific to using that particular item.

by that logic specific familiars have specific DCs attached to their attacks... i am not sure why you would consider a warlock invocation to be the general rule, it is by its very nature specific to warlocks and even more so specific to a player selected invocation, and even more specific as this invocation requires a specific qualification of another invocation. generally, anyone can use a net and apply the DC that is generally used when one uses a net.

 

[ECMO3]

by that logic specific familiars have specific DCs attached to their attacks... i am not sure why you would consider a warlock invocation to be the general rule, it is by its very nature specific to warlocks and even more so specific to a player selected invocation, and even more specific as this invocation requires a specific qualification of another invocation. generally, anyone can use a net and apply the DC that is generally used when one uses a net.

In terms of specificity, while it is debatable, I tend to agree with the others that the net is more specific in this instance.

Familiars typically do not have DCs associated with their attacks in 5.5. DCs in terms of statblocks are usually reserved for creature-specific actions that are not attacks.

The net on the other hand is an attack (in that you replace the attack action to use it). A net in this fashion applies a DC to an attack and that is specific and generally an anomaly in 5.5E with the other exception being an unarmed strike, which is also a very specific attack.

I also think when the Invocation states "if the familiar forces a creature to make a saving throw" it means specifically things the familiar can force - Scare on a Quasit, Sting on a Pseudragon, Heartsight on a sprite. I don't think it means any general save as a result of the environment that are not "forced" by an ability of the familiar.

Further if we are to take this to its limit then a familiar that made an unarmed strike would use the Warlock spell save DC for a push or shove, or a familiar that used a wand or threw caltrops would use the Warlock spell save DC. If the familiar pushed an enemy into your Cleric's Spirit Guardians it would use the Warlock DC instead of the Cleric DC. Likewise if a familiar used deception to cause an enemy to walk into weak floor plank which collapsed you would use the warlocks DC instead of the DC for the weakened floor. I don't think these things constitute a familiar "forcing" a save, I think they are the object or other environmental effect forcing the save.