Skip Williams' Beguiler Article

[the_mighty_agrippa]

My rogues generally spend their time ahead of the party gathering intelligence (ah, Status). That, IMO, is the true strength of the stealth classes, bringing some critical piece of knowledge to the PCs that allows them to the bring their most powerful resources to the next fight. I can't recall how many times we've gone against golems and undead well-prepared because of the rogue's scouting.

 

[lukelightning]

My rogues generally spend their time ahead of the party gathering intelligence...

Something a beguiler can do 10 times better than a rogue. Hiding sucks in D&D; too many things negate mundane sneaking around, such as darkvision (can't hide in the shadows from someone who can see in the dark), scent, blindsense, tremorsense, etc.

Why oh why did I put all those skill points in hide when the warlock can just turn invisible and scout way better than I?

Plus a beguiler can cast detect thoughts to spy even better.

 

[Goldmoon]

Something a beguiler can do 10 times better than a rogue. Hiding sucks in D&D; too many things negate mundane sneaking around, such as darkvision (can't hide in the shadows from someone who can see in the dark), scent, blindsense, tremorsense, etc.

Why oh why did I put all those skill points in hide when the warlock can just turn invisible and scout way better than I?

Plus a beguiler can cast detect thoughts to spy even better.

In 2E a thief's hide in shadows even worked against infravision because a thief knew how to mask body heat as well as obscure body lines and the like. Even with darrkvision there are some shadows. Why cant a rogue use those shadows to hide in. Why cant their training encompass darkvision as well? Does it say anywhere that darkvision automatically detects a rogue who is using the hide skill?

 

[Staffan]

Darkvision just means that you need to get some actual cover or concealment to hide behind, instead of some strange "hide in shadows" thing.

And most of the things mentioned work just as good on invisible characters as on hiding ones (scent, tremorsense, blindsense, etc.). Points on Detect Thoughts though - but it's a bit risky, if they pass their save, you've just alerted them that they're under some sort of magic attack.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I'm seriously considering using an NPC group of the four PHB2 classes against my PCs. Not the same as seeing them in play as PCs, of course, but it should be an interesting exercise.

I think they would be an awesome NPC opposition group but would be terrible as a PC group. They have lots of interesting and cool abilities, but they are literally incapable of healing past half health without magic items.

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

I think they would be an awesome NPC opposition group but would be terrible as a PC group. They have lots of interesting and cool abilities, but they are literally incapable of healing past half health without magic items.

What about Favored Souls?

Beguiler
Favored Soul
Warlock
Swashbuckler

Not the traditional, stand-up & smack-down party but very viable.

 

[Rystil Arden]

What about Favored Souls?

Beguiler
Favored Soul
Warlock
Swashbuckler

Not the traditional, stand-up & smack-down party but very viable.

That isn't in the PHBII. You can absolutely definitely make an awesome and balanced group with only non-core base classes (and might I recommend the cooler and more fun Archivist over the Favoured Soul for the divine character if you do?), but not with only the 4 PHBII classes.

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

Ah, I missed the PHBII reference.

Carry on...

 

[lukelightning]

...Even with darrkvision there are some shadows. Why cant a rogue use those shadows to hide in. Why cant their training encompass darkvision as well? Does it say anywhere that darkvision automatically detects a rogue who is using the hide skill?

A shadow is nothing but darkeness. Pretend you are hiding in the shadows in a dark corner. A human can't see you, you are in darkness. But a dwarf can see you. The shadow is darkness, which his darkvision can easily penetrate. So unless you are hiding behind something else you have no concealment from the dwarf (or anything else that has darkvision). This is, of course, only within range of the darkvision.

 

[lukelightning]

Points on Detect Thoughts though - but it's a bit risky, if they pass their save, you've just alerted them that they're under some sort of magic attack.

How so? Detect Thoughts isn't a targeted spell; I have never seen a DM tell anyone "you're talking to the old harmless hermit...oh, and you got targeted by a magic spell" (hermit, of course, is a doppelganger trying to read the PCs minds).