Skip Williams' Beguiler Article

[Goldmoon]

The player is me, and what other options do I have? Everyone says "UMD" but that really only works if you've got that maxxed out, and between all the other rogue stuff I have to do I had no points to spare (along with an average Cha stat). Rogues are all about sneak attack. It's not like they get many feats for combat maneuvers or special abilities.

Rouges, properly outfitted, can do much more than just sneak attack. Hide, then disarm an opponent so your fighters can beat the hell out of them. Use a whip and trip them without fear of the AoO. Three words: Fun with Lassos. Tanglefoot bags, vials of acid, caltrops. Just get creative with your equipment and magic items. Plan for those situations where you cant sneak attack.

 

[lukelightning]

I've got precious few feats to spend on Exotic Weapon proficiencies. Tripping? Possibly, but many of the non-sneak-attackable creatures don't weild weapons.

Tanglefoot bags are ok vs. humanoids, not so good vs. large earth elementals, hill giant zombies, or shadows. Acid? Woo hoo, 1d6 damage, I can do that with my bow. Last game we were fighting vampires; I had a dozen vials of holy water (planning ahead), but they didn't have much affect considering the vampires' high amount of hit points and rapid healing. Caltrops are useless: If something can't be sneak attacked I doubt it will care about stepping on a caltrop, plus they have a whopping +0 to hit.

Yeah, all of these are something but mostly amount to doing token actions just because it's my turn. A beguiler, as has been mentioned, can actually provide substantial help to the party and do significant actions even vs. creatures immune to its magic.

 

[frankthedm]

Rogues are all about sneak attack. It's not like they get many feats for combat maneuvers or special abilities.

That is opinion.

What is fact is that 1/3 of the creature types in the D&D game are inherently immune to sneak attack

 

[Stalker0]

I've got precious few feats to spend on Exotic Weapon proficiencies. Tripping? Possibly, but many of the non-sneak-attackable creatures don't weild weapons.

Tanglefoot bags are ok vs. humanoids, not so good vs. large earth elementals, hill giant zombies, or shadows.

TF bags are great vs EVERYTHING (smaller than huge), they are like the best alchemical item in the book But seriously, the big thing about them is that as long as you make the touch attack, your giving serious penalties to your adversary. The reflex save only holds them in place, and while its a nice bonus, its certainly not why I use tanglefoot bags.

 

[Goldmoon]

I've got precious few feats to spend on Exotic Weapon proficiencies. Tripping? Possibly, but many of the non-sneak-attackable creatures don't weild weapons.

Tanglefoot bags are ok vs. humanoids, not so good vs. large earth elementals, hill giant zombies, or shadows. Acid? Woo hoo, 1d6 damage, I can do that with my bow. Last game we were fighting vampires; I had a dozen vials of holy water (planning ahead), but they didn't have much affect considering the vampires' high amount of hit points and rapid healing. Caltrops are useless: If something can't be sneak attacked I doubt it will care about stepping on a caltrop, plus they have a whopping +0 to hit.

Yeah, all of these are something but mostly amount to doing token actions just because it's my turn. A beguiler, as has been mentioned, can actually provide substantial help to the party and do significant actions even vs. creatures immune to its magic.

A Decanter of endless water, properly blessed, works wonders against vampires. A flask of oil with a rag stuffed into it, lit and thrown into a hill giant zombie will be fun, since it wont bother to try and extungish itself, it will just burn. (rinse; repeat as desired!) Earth elementals, again with the decanter of endless water unless theyre made completely of stone. These are just off the top of my head. Im sure I could come up with more and better options if I sit down and think about it.

 

[lukelightning]

A Decanter of endless water, properly blessed, works wonders against vampires.

The jet of water does a wopping 1d4 damage and certainly doesn't count as immersion for purposes of slaying a vampire. I'm not sure what you mean about the blessed part; a decanter of endless holy water sounds like a minor artifact, not a standard magic item.

Burning oil or alchemist fire only burns for an extra round, not forever and the creature still gets a reflex save.

 

[Ilium]

I've got precious few feats to spend on Exotic Weapon proficiencies. Tripping? Possibly, but many of the non-sneak-attackable creatures don't weild weapons.

Tanglefoot bags are ok vs. humanoids, not so good vs. large earth elementals, hill giant zombies, or shadows. Acid? Woo hoo, 1d6 damage, I can do that with my bow. Last game we were fighting vampires; I had a dozen vials of holy water (planning ahead), but they didn't have much affect considering the vampires' high amount of hit points and rapid healing. Caltrops are useless: If something can't be sneak attacked I doubt it will care about stepping on a caltrop, plus they have a whopping +0 to hit.

Yeah, all of these are something but mostly amount to doing token actions just because it's my turn. A beguiler, as has been mentioned, can actually provide substantial help to the party and do significant actions even vs. creatures immune to its magic.

These are valid concernce, of course, but to me one of the best things you can do in this situation is Aid Another. Say your rogue has trouble hurting the opponent at all (being a rogue he probably doesn't carry a golf bag full of different weapons to overcome DR). So you Aid the greataxe-wielding barbarian. Now that barbarian can take an additional -2 for his power attack without affecting his chance to hit. That's an additional 4 points of damage per round YOU are putting out. 4 times however many times he hits, of course, if he gets iterative attacks. If you're also flanking that can be 8 points of damage instead. Not as satisfying as doing the damage yourself perhaps, but it adds up. Or Aid the other way to protect your big damage-drawing ally. If you're doing no damage yourself you may not draw attacks, but statistically that -2 on the opponent's attacks can save your collective bacon.

Or use your big tumbling modifier to move around the battle with healing potions or to drag helpless allies to safety.

 

[Mistwell]

Do they at least get UMD so they are not crippled in fights against foes with unbendable minds? If not, they have little business going into dungeons.

The rogue has the cleric to pick up the slack when the crits go away against undead and such. Is the cleric going to be pulling the weight of three characters when the undead show up with a beguiler in the party? :\

Interesting that you think a Cleric backing up a rogue is enough against undead (no mention of all the other types of things immune to sneak attacks), but you think it takes the entire rest of the party to back-up the beguiler under virtually the same circumstances.

The beguiler is just as effective as the rogue versus mindless things. If one character can pick up the slack for a rogue, then one character can pick up the slack for a Beguiler.

Not to mention of course all the spells that CAN effect mindless creatures, like Shadow Evocations and Shadow Conjuations and buffs.

Critters with major immunties are a fact of life in D&D, PCs who think their powers are so kewl and then sulk like a child when the monsters don't happen to be vulnerable to thier shtick are getting tiring.

Nobody said anything about sulking like a child. In fact, nobody even brought up this aspect of the topic other than you. Sounds like you are intentionally trying to get a negative reaction from people.

 

[Goldmoon]

The jet of water does a wopping 1d4 damage and certainly doesn't count as immersion for purposes of slaying a vampire. I'm not sure what you mean about the blessed part; a decanter of endless holy water sounds like a minor artifact, not a standard magic item.

Burning oil or alchemist fire only burns for an extra round, not forever and the creature still gets a reflex save.

Unless it catches them on fire, which it will very likely do. Why couldnt you Reduce the vampire and hit him with the decanter. On gyser I dont see why it wouldnt count as immersion.

 

[Piratecat]

What is fact is that 1/3 of the creature types in the D&D game are inherently immune to sneak attack

As long as they don't actually show up one third of the time on a continuing basis - and in my experience they don't, especially for a DM who does his best to make sure every player is having fun - this isn't a problem for me.