Sneak Attack--Help me stop my DM from banishing it!

[Ryujin]

True, to a point. Consider that the Rogue is getting a +2 to hit, due to CA, and the average REAL damage starts to look better. Total potential damage, and average real damage, are two decidedly different things. The Ranger ups his average by making more attacks. The Avenger does it by rolling twice per attack. The Ranger does it by making two attacks, with somewhat less damage potential for each.

The Warlock...... gets annoyed and goes home.

 

[sigfile]

Absolutely. Expected Damage Per Round (which factors in to-hit chance) gives a more "whole" picture. But DMs rarely balk at really good average damage -- it's the spikes that make people start wondering if something is overpowered.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

The Warlock...... gets annoyed and goes home.

Yeah, poor warlock got the shaft. They should have had either an accuracy booster, or a better damage mechanic. A bonus to hit Cursed targets, cursed enemies automatically take damage, or something else to make up for the fact that they suck at damage output.

I know that somebody has to bring up the rear, but if it has to be them, they at least could have had better secondary effects. Maybe other penalties attached to the curse?

Can you tell I've played a warlock before? Haha.

 

[shamsael]

The best way to deal with characters that deal too much damage is to use more minions.

 

[Ryujin]

Yeah, poor warlock got the shaft. They should have had either an accuracy booster, or a better damage mechanic. A bonus to hit Cursed targets, cursed enemies automatically take damage, or something else to make up for the fact that they suck at damage output.

I know that somebody has to bring up the rear, but if it has to be them, they at least could have had better secondary effects. Maybe other penalties attached to the curse?

Can you tell I've played a warlock before? Haha.

I played a Feylock until Paragon, while being ignored. I Dual-Pacted to Fey/Darklock at Paragon, and was ignored at the enemies' peril. By round three, four at the outside, things started to explode all over the battlemap.

I get down on Warlocks, but they have compensatory controlerish effects that can make them useful. When I tossed a Brute to the ceiling, with Storm Countesses Kiss, then summarily tossed him off the bridge once he saved and dropped down from the ceiling, it definitely made for a much shorter encounter. Having a creature whack whichever buddy is the closest is still doing damage. Otherwind Stride, locking down a bunch of opponents while getting the F out of Dodge, is a pretty handy trick. Dropping the Warden into the middle of a bunch of enemies, using Fey Switch, is also good for a laugh, especially if you can somehow combine it with those locked-down enemies from Otherwind Stride.

Under-appreciated, I tells ya!

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I played a Feylock until Paragon, while being ignored. I Dual-Pacted to Fey/Darklock at Paragon, and was ignored at the enemies' peril. By round three, four at the outside, things started to explode all over the battlemap.

I get down on Warlocks, but they have compensatory controlerish effects that can make them useful. When I tossed a Brute to the ceiling, with Storm Countesses Kiss, then summarily tossed him off the bridge once he saved and dropped down from the ceiling, it definitely made for a much shorter encounter. Having a creature whack whichever buddy is the closest is still doing damage. Otherwind Stride, locking down a bunch of opponents while getting the F out of Dodge, is a pretty handy trick. Dropping the Warden into the middle of a bunch of enemies, using Fey Switch, is also good for a laugh, especially if you can somehow combine it with those locked-down enemies from Otherwind Stride.

Under-appreciated, I tells ya!

I know they have some good tricks, there's no doubt about that. I played a Feylock, and was really enjoying it, especially for RP, but in combat, she just doesn't do much striking, for a striker. Granted, I only played her to level 3 before that game went on indefinite hiatus (hopefully we'll get back to it someday).

Maybe I was just jealous that our Twin Striking Goblin Ranger MC Rogue could take down a hobgoblin in one surprise round.

That was also at the dawn of 4e, so there are many better options now. I think another part of my issue was that the monsters always seemed to save against my ongoing effects. I'll have to be more mindful of stuff that lasts until end of next turn, and take something to punish enemy saves. It's too bad that Spell Focus is very specific to Wizard powers, or that would be ideal (I MCed Wizard with Learned Spellcaster).

 

[Prestidigitalis]

I think another part of my issue was that the monsters always seemed to save against my ongoing effects. I'll have to be more mindful of stuff that lasts until end of next turn, and take something to punish enemy saves.

That's a serious issue that doesn't get a lot of discussion. It's one reason why I tend to build characters who focus on damage and not conditions. One can always tweak for penalties to saves, but that's the kind of CharOp that I really don't enjoy -- too single-minded.

It's too bad that Spell Focus is very specific to Wizard powers, or that would be ideal (I MCed Wizard with Learned Spellcaster).

Yes, and I can't think of a reason for it to be so specific. I have the same problem with Spell Accuracy, an Epic Tier feat that would be enormously useful to Sorcerers. It will be interesting to see if WotC gives any of them the Essentials treatment, creating similar feats that are unrestricted.

 

[Holy Bovine]

Thank you so much for helping me with this! I now have an arsenal of counter-arguments in favor of SA. My rogue has been saved after all!

However, I may let the undead thing slide, strange as it is already. I guess you could counter the undead's immunity to sneak attack by making them really stupid fighters (not like most of them aren't already), so while I'm not spectacularly useful against undead, they aren't actively trying to gang-kill me like most intelligent enemies would--unless, of course, I'm really stupid and throw myself in the middle of a swarm of zombies... in which case, the DM has every right to swarm my rogue.

Thanks for helping me out! I just joined, but I'm already loving the community's activeness here

Make sure your DM looks at just how many hps higher level critters get. He will be begging you do to more damage to the monsters just so combats can end before the 3 hour mark by 6th level.

 

[Piratecat]

Welcome to the boards!

I sympathize with your DM, because my campaign started with two rogues in it and currently has four strikers (rogue, avenger, sorcerer, ranger) out of six PCs (wizard and shaman). And you know what? I love it. One of 4e's big flaws is that combat can be slow or last too long. I never have that problem. Rogues are great at doing lots of damage to one opponent, and whenever that gets boring I just use a ton (in one case, 40) minions. Everyone stays interested and effective without sacrificing the balance of the game.

I'd recommend against the undead nerfing as well. In 3e, undead got no con bonus to hp and so didn't have many hp relative to other monsters. It was okay if rogues weren't effective. That's not the case in 4e, though, and it goes against the game's design philosophy to always neuter one character class against a wide range of monsters.

 

[Dausuul]

In 3e, undead got no con bonus to hp and so didn't have many hp relative to other monsters. It was okay if rogues weren't effective. That's not the case in 4e, though, and it goes against the game's design philosophy to always neuter one character class against a wide range of monsters.

This is a key point. In 3E, the tradeoff for undead was that they got crappy hit points but immunity to pretty much every conceivable status effect and bonus damage source--no crits, no sneak attacks, no sleep, no mind-affecting, no poison, no ability damage, et cetera et cetera. It was a crude sort of balance that often led to problems, but there was at least a semblance of balance there.

In 4E, undead have the same hit points as everything else. If you start importing 3E's laundry list of undead immunities, suddenly undead become far more powerful.