Sneak Attack--Help me stop my DM from banishing it!

[Droogie128]

Nah, rogues have secretly been the best damage dealers since PHB 1. They just require more/better teamwork than rangers to get there (and... er, that Blade Cascade Nerf ).

Rogues can't touch a ranger for pure damage output. Noone can. If your DM doesn't give up on this, makes LDB's stormwarden build. That'll REALLY make him cry, and beg you to play the rogue again.

 

[BobTheNob]

To OP. Some thought on this as a DM.

When we first came to 4e, we did so from a 3e background (albeit some years in-between). My first inclination was as your current DM is doing. "Rogues can backstab undead! Rubbish!". But you really have to embrace the fact that 4e is NOT 3e, in fact, its the greatest divergence from established D&D standards that ever there was. To say undead should be immune to sneak attack is imposing a 3e idea into a 4e context.

Fact is, the way the rogue was balanced into 3e is entirely different to how they are balanced into 4e. In 3e, backstab damage was ENORMOUS yet only worked on certain targets. In 4e, it is far more humble (about 3d6 at 20 instead of 10d6, and only one per turn) yet is applicable to all targets. If you make it not effect sub-types, that means its both humble AND only effects certain types. That would make the rogue the single most ineffectual class in the entire game. It is a poor decision at every level.

A few things to point out to your DM about the rogue. Our party has one, in fact the player has played it through, all the way from level 1 to level 15! Its a cunning sneak and can dish some hideous damage, however...
* Often, to get CA, the character can get "caught out" trying to flank enemies. Fact is, they have to commit to the battle to do any good...standing back is infrequently helpful
* Poor(ish) AC and Moderate hit points. Not great features for a character that is expected to be in the heart of combat
* Craptacular number of healing surges. If your DM plays it right and stops the party from extended rests after every encounter (groan) healing surges are vital. Often our rogue has ended up out of healing surges and going down hard.

There is a balance here. Trust 4e, it is a system designed from the ground up to mechanically work in a way it never did in previous editions. You can make small divergences (everyone houserules) and that is fine, but this ultra nerf is unfathomable.

In the end, your DM's only argument for such a monumental change is "Cause I dont think it should", and that just isnt good enough.

 

[sigfile]

Rogues can't touch a ranger for pure damage output. Noone can. If your DM doesn't give up on this, makes LDB's stormwarden build. That'll REALLY make him cry, and beg you to play the rogue again.

He's level two. There's only so much optimization that can be in place at level two.

 

[The Little Raven]

Yeah, poor warlock got the shaft. They should have had either an accuracy booster, or a better damage mechanic. A bonus to hit Cursed targets, cursed enemies automatically take damage, or something else to make up for the fact that they suck at damage output.

Y'know, the Warlock actually does have an accuracy booster. Unfortunately, it's Prime Shot. The fact that everyone forgets about it is a testament to what a "great" class feature it is.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Y'know, the Warlock actually does have an accuracy booster. Unfortunately, it's Prime Shot. The fact that everyone forgets about it is a testament to what a "great" class feature it is.

Yeah, you're right - I did forget about it. I have used it in game, and I have reminded others at times when it has applied, but Ranger or Warlock, it's a terrible class feature. I'm guessing that is why some of the essential classes just get a flat +1 with weapon attacks.

I'm considering houseruling Prime Shot to apply to whichever target the character has Cursed/Quarried.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

That's a serious issue that doesn't get a lot of discussion. It's one reason why I tend to build characters who focus on damage and not conditions. One can always tweak for penalties to saves, but that's the kind of CharOp that I really don't enjoy -- too single-minded.

I was implying that my DM for that game was fudging his monster's saves, but I don't know that. It was just so rare that they didn't save that I was beginning to wonder. He is the type of DM that would do that if he thought we were going to have things too easy (even if we earned it by virtue of good tactics, etc).

Yes, and I can't think of a reason for it to be so specific. I have the same problem with Spell Accuracy, an Epic Tier feat that would be enormously useful to Sorcerers. It will be interesting to see if WotC gives any of them the Essentials treatment, creating similar feats that are unrestricted.

I hope they do, but considering the treatment that save penalties got (i.e. the big nerf bat - with good reason), I won't count on it. If they do, I expect the new text would read that it only applies to the first save.

A lot of the essentials stuff doesn't even do "save ends" so much anyway. I recall reading somewhere that this was a conscious decision on their part to simplify condition tracking (which admittedly is a pain sometimes).

In any case, I may houserule it for my game that 'Wizard' should read 'Arcane' in the feat description.

 

[Destil]

I'm not sure if I missed this somewhere, but are you playing an Essentials rogue?

Not with sly flourish he's not.

 

[Ryujin]

Y'know, the Warlock actually does have an accuracy booster. Unfortunately, it's Prime Shot. The fact that everyone forgets about it is a testament to what a "great" class feature it is.

It becomes far more useful when combined with Prime Curse, Prime Punisher, or Called Shot in Paragon. Still not optimal, for a squishy, to have to be closer than the Defender to the intended target. Even my perpetually teleporting Feylock found it less than optimal.

 

[Aulirophile]

Yeah, you're right - I did forget about it. I have used it in game, and I have reminded others at times when it has applied, but Ranger or Warlock, it's a terrible class feature. I'm guessing that is why some of the essential classes just get a flat +1 with weapon attacks.

I'm considering houseruling Prime Shot to apply to whichever target the character has Cursed/Quarried.

At Paragon it is a pretty good feature actually....

Not with sly flourish he's not.

He could be playing a human.

 

[Destil]

He could be playing a human.

Except he's also a drow.