D&D 5E Sneak Attack: optional or mandatory?

I prefer Sneak Attack to be...

  • a mandatory/common feature of all Rogues

    Votes: 44 37.9%
  • a feature of some Rogue subclasses only

    Votes: 39 33.6%
  • optional for each Rogue individually (~Wizardry)

    Votes: 28 24.1%
  • something else (or whatever)

    Votes: 5 4.3%

Damn you all... I can't resist.

You made me start thinking of turning my old 4E Daredevil into a Pathfinder archetype. And once I start thinking about such, it's very hard to stop. Not that it will help or affect Next in any way, and I don't even play Pathfinder very much, so it will be mostly a wasted effort. But fun as I go, I suppose. Still, I totally blame ENworld for the hours I'll spend on this! :o
 

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I'm going to take a stab at trying to explain why I think it would be a bad thing for the game to present the option to decrease ability in one pillar to excel at another.

I prefer to have PCs who can contribute equally but differently in all situations. I like proactive, invested players, who when presented a situation sees multiple options laid out before them. Those options shouldn't be driven by their character's mechanics but by the fiction of the game. A character who has given up a great deal of combat prowess is going to want to avoid combat. A character who has given up a great deal of exploration options will not care about exploration. A character who has given up the ability to take part in social interaction won't be as interested in intrigue. So by giving hte option to remove combat prowess in favor of, say, social interaction, to my mind, is taking away useful options from the player. Suddenly you aren't siloing abilities, you're siloing PCs.

We're going in circles now, as your viewpoint was already presented by others, and addressed. Inherent in this view is taking the concept to the extreme, and claiming "a great deal" of combat prowess is given up. We're not talking about that. Nobody is saying you should be able to trade all your combat abilities, or even most of them, away for a non-combat one. It's not an argument of "let's set this precedent with X, and then also spread that same concept to Y and Z too".

We're talking specifics here, not generalities. Specifically, we're talking about swapping sneak attack for a more non-combat ability. And as I've already addressed, the rogue is not crippled in combat by losing the sneak attack ability.

You're NEVER going to achieve perfect equality in all things by all classes. Nor is that a desirable thing to constantly move towards, because it tends to result in all the classes feeling roughly the same, which was one major complaint with 4e (whether you agree with that complaint or not). Based on feedback given to WOTC in their surveys, a majority of people want characters that have a wide variation in their abilities and focuses, and balance between the classes in all things is not the highest priority. It's OK if one character is better at social encounters than another, one is better at combat over great distances than another, one is better at combat at short distances than another, one is good at capers that require a lot of sneaking around and scouting than another, etc.. It's not an undesirable thing that the classes are not equally balanced in all these things.

Beyond that, I want players who are invested and excited by all kinds of different aspects of gameplay.

This is up to the DM, not what's written on character sheets.

When the PCs come into the den of thieves and have to convince the guildmaster to help them, I don't want gameplay to suddenly be driven by the guy who forewent Sneak Attack for Improved Parlay or whatever ability replaces it.

Why the heck not, it's what his character does best! Just like it's what the fighter does best when in melee combat, or what the wizard does best against groups of creatures, or what the archer does best at long distance combat, etc...

I want the group as a whole to come together, for everyone to want to interact here.

So engage them as a DM. That's your job, not the job of the rules. You're basically arguing everyone should be using their character sheets to seek out options for that kind of encounter, instead of just telling you what they do and interacting with the DM and other players. That's, in my experience, not the most conducive method of engaging players (even the ones good at that task).

That means I want every PC to have a relevant interaction ability.

Well, they won't. In no version of the game did they, and clearly in this version they won't either. Some people will be better at some things than others, as it should be, as it's always been. And if the Wizard has time to re-memorize spells or buy a scroll of what he needs, he will flip his abilities in a single day, trading a combat spell for a non-combat one. There is no way to make everyone as good at everything as everyone else, without the game becoming incredibly boring.

This is especially true if this encounter is the climax of the adventure or session, just as if it had been a fight with a BBEG.

So whatever option you want to give the PC in exchange for Sneak Attack? I want that to be siloed out. I want all rogues to have access to that as part of their interaction pillar. Then, they can change that out for something different way of interacting. Options are great. Removing options isn't great, and I don't think it should be encouraged or really even allowed.

Well, by saying you don't want it allowed, you're saying you want your playstyle to be forced on everyone. I don't get that. Not everyone plays the same as you, or has the same style as you, or desires this equality that you seem to value very highly. They should have at least optional rules in a future rules module/supplement that lets them adapt the game to the way they want to play it.

But, don't force character to choose which pillar to specialize in, which is basically what would happen if you could trade one pillar for another. If someone wants their PC to be a smooth talker, they shouldn't have to give up their ability to be an equal in combat. That's not something I want to see in D&D.

So I guess you want ability modifiers to be removed from everything as well? Because they have to given up an ability score somewhere to have a high charisma, which means they traded being good at persuasion-abilities for being bad at something else. And of course the wizards could no longer switch spells in a day.

This goal you're seeking is unreachable, and not desirable to begin with. People LIKE their character being good at something nobody else is good at. This is the whole friggen purpose of the class system. D&D isn't a class-less system. There are plenty of other games out there much better suited to the goals you're stating, but in no way is D&D one of those, because it's all about unique classes and abilities not shared by all the other PCs.
 
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I think in this thread people have repeatedly pointed out how a daily spell selection is completely different than a character build that can't be changed (or can only be changed every several levels through retraining).

Spell lists are also much more granular than other options all the other classes have. You can choose degrees based on how much of each pillar you expect to run into per day. Spells selection allows a spellcaster to operate on any pillar based on what is coming up.

If you wanted to do something similar with rogues, you'd have to give them somewhere around 20 abilities from a larger list, easily changeable, and have them work in various pillars sometimes overlapping.
I can generalise my point, though, to the content of a wizard's spellbook. I posted a spellbook list upthread that was pretty non-combat (or, at least, non-damage) oriented.

And the idea of an adaptable rogue somewhat along the lines of your third para doesn't seem so bad to me!
 

If WOTC would ever get of this "All science is magic in D&D" kick, maybe we could get a gadgeteer rogue with adaptable short term gadgets per day. Spring shoes, slick pouches, googles, and climbing gloves for exploration. Mini disguise kits. and communicators for social. And All those combat gadgets. But they hates non-arcane science which isn't herbalism and basic medicine.
 

Because rogues cannot adjust their features on a regular basis to fitting the setting
This isn't an edict from on high. It's a deliberate design choice. And without any particular basis in the genre - Conan and Batman, for instance, are both clearly able to adjust their features to fit the setting!

I agree that the rogue doesn't need sneak attack to be effective in combat, but he does need something more useful in combat than some skills and imagination from a game mechanic standpoint
But it doesn't have to be damage. Nor single-target debuff. The controller in my 4e game (an invoker/wizard) does pathetic damage but does multi-target debuff (daze, blind) and area control via zones. Given that, in the real world, the ability to deceive, ambush and manipulate can make a real difference in small group combat, shouldn't it be all the moreso in a genre-emulating fantasy RPG with larger-than-life roguish PCs? I'm not offering mechanics - that's the designers' job (though there are examples from other RPGs that they could look at, from the old Tactics skill in Traveller to linked tests to augment combat in Burning Wheel to descriptor-based conflict resolution in HeroWars/Quest). But surely it's not beyond the scope of D&D to address this issue.

It's the same as a DM allowing a sorcerer to not take combat spells in a combat heavy 3rd edition campaign
Obviously in a combat-heavy campaign an assassin is probably better than a con-artist. But who says all campaigns have to be combat heavy? I thought D&Dnext was meant to support action across the 3 tiers, and without the sort of build-and-resolution quaranting that is characteristic of 4e.

What about players that aren't good at thinking outside the box? The game is for them too. That sounds like a way for an inexperienced player to accidently make a charater that isn't very good at combat, which most D&D games have a lot of, and make him be bored for a significant portion of the game. That isn't good for the game, and just saying " Be more creative." or "Think outside of the box" doesn't really cut it in that situation.
What happens if those same players build illusionist wizards? Or 20th level knights, and then can't think of anything to do with their followers? Or, in 4e, specialised ritual casters? It's enough that the game points out that certain options are more demanding on players than others. 4e does a poor job of this - as best I recall, its PHB doesn't really tell new players that they're better off with an archer ranger than a warlock or wizard - but 13th Age shows how a rulebook can tackle this issue without being condescending.

Also, how do we know that damage-dealing combat is a significant portion of the game?

I don't think it would serve the game well to have a lot of rogues that are like 1E/2E thieves, very suboptimal in combat while the other classes get good combat abilities to play with.
Last time I started an AD&D campaign as GM (25 years ago now) both players built multi-classed thieves (dwarven F/T, gnomish I/T). At 6th level they both transitioned to thief-acrobats. And they used those abilities to advantage in combat - mobility, surprise, escape (by running/jumping across rooftops), etc. The mechanics for resolving all this in AD&D were pretty underdeveloped and a bit GM-fiat-y, but as I mentioned above there are a lot of good examples that could now be drawn on.

My default thief would play like an AD&D F/T - more fragile in both hp and AC, marginally weaker in to-hit (because 1 level lower) and damage (because of the STR/DEX trade offs), but compensating for both with abilities that mitigate damage taken (via stealth, evasion, deception etc) and allow spike damage (via ambush, surprise etc). The current packet, in my view, makes the rogue too fragile (in hp terms) and too reliant on sneak attack for damage (no multi-attack) and provides too little support for sneaky things being the underpinning of combat efficacy.
 

If WOTC would ever get of this "All science is magic in D&D" kick, maybe we could get a gadgeteer rogue with adaptable short term gadgets per day. Spring shoes, slick pouches, googles, and climbing gloves for exploration. Mini disguise kits. and communicators for social. And All those combat gadgets. But they hates non-arcane science which isn't herbalism and basic medicine.
This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. (Though not all of it. I'm also talking about a resolution system for deception and trickery other than GM fiat.)

The closest I know is the poison abilities of the executioner assassin in Heroes of Shadow, but that still falls within your herbaism/medicine category.
 

IAnd the idea of an adaptable rogue somewhat along the lines of your third para doesn't seem so bad to me!

I absolutely agree. I would be intrigued by a roguish class that had a list of abilities that could increase adaptability and wouldn't be reliant on any particular specific ability. I am also a fan of powers that aren't just numerical but add some kind of options.
 

You made me start thinking of turning my old 4E Daredevil into a Pathfinder archetype.

A first shot at a Daredevil archetype for Pathfinder is up here:
http://hastur.net/wiki/Daredevil_(Apath)

The changes focus on replacing sneak attack with other combat abilities, so all of the new daredevil tricks are combative in nature.

It is of course not playtested or even seriously balanced. Also I should check the names of the various abilities for collision with other official terms in Pathfinder.

It is not made for Next, but I think Pathfinder is a lot closer to Next than 4E and my previous 4E Daredevil class was, so it can act as a start for an attempt to replace sneak attack in Next too. However, next has much fewer abilities on characters that Pathfinder has, and this class is rules-heavy even by Pathfinder terms. I do not feel something of this level of complexity belongs in Next, possibly as an expansion but not in the basic set.
 

If WOTC would ever get of this "All science is magic in D&D" kick, maybe we could get a gadgeteer rogue with adaptable short term gadgets per day. Spring shoes, slick pouches, googles, and climbing gloves for exploration. Mini disguise kits. and communicators for social. And All those combat gadgets. But they hates non-arcane science which isn't herbalism and basic medicine.

So, how would that work? Is it like a lore ability that gives you +10 to all knowledge checks, but every time you make a roll, you get ads for how to earn 35,023 XP in just two days killing kobolds from home?
 

Oh, absolutely. Sneak attack needs to be a viable combat option, which means sneaking also needs to be a viable combat option.

I agree with the first part of your statement here, and disagree with the second. A thief should be able to open combat from stealth and deal a metric ton of damage. After that, he should be able to hold his on in combat, but nowhere near the ability of a ranger/fighter/paladin without resorting to methods like invisibility. Stealth in combat should be almost impossible to pull off without magic. You step behind a chair and hide, why didn't I SEE you step behind the chair? And if you pulled off a distraction, well, there's only so many places you could be, I'm going to be prepared as I check behind the chair, not surprised.
 

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