Sneak Attack Question

[Storm Raven]

I believe that Order of the Bow Initiates eventually get to flank rangedly.

You believe incorrectly.

 

[TrizzlWizzl]

Ack. Delete post.

 

[Uriel - inactive]

in the phb do they not mention lidda sneak attacking a troll with her crossbow ???

Yes, but it was due to a surprise / catching the troll flat-footed, not because she was flanking him / it.

Uriel

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Wrong there spider... A rogue can only sneak attack from cover if his target is within his ranks in hide away from him.

So, if your rogue had 20 ranks in hide, then he could charge the ogre and his attack would be a sneak attack. Of course, since he's charging his hide would be at a -20 (or so) and this the ogre has a good chance of spotting him.

Please see the section in Song and Silence regarding Tailing someone...around P. 37.

Also, see these threads:
http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9654
http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10146

I'm going to have to borrow song and silence from my friend it sounds like they changed er clarified sneak attacks a bit.

I'm assuming in this 20 ranks of hide rule it is for sneaking up on someone in one round, not taking a pot shot with a bow.

And one of those threads you pointed us too says you can't get multiple attacks when hiding? I thought someone had ruled the other way, a full attack is an attack action that happens all at once so you don't lose the hiding benefit or invis benefit until after the full attack.

 

[Gromm]

in the phb do they not mention lidda sneak attacking a troll with her crossbow ???

Because the troll was flatfooted (he lost initiative to her).
She went first and sneak attacked him.

As far as hiding in the ogre example- No sneak attack if the ogre detects the rogue- hes not hidden if you get sneak attacks on him. Though he could shoot, say a crossbow, and get a sneak attack (since the ogre couldn't see him before he attacked- which is the important point).

If the PC could sneak up on the ogre without being seen and attack him (being as said above- effectively invisible) he would get the sneak attack, not if the ogre sees him coming (unless hes flanked- but thats a completely different animal).

 

[dr_nukem]

I'm assuming in this 20 ranks of hide rule it is for sneaking up on someone in one round, not taking a pot shot with a bow.

Pot shot with a bow is covered...basically you can make a SINGLE missle attack and then re-hide (at a -20) in one round. Which is effectively a Standard Action (attac) and Move Equiv (move/hide).

And one of those threads you pointed us too says you can't get multiple attacks when hiding? I thought someone had ruled the other way, a full attack is an attack action that happens all at once so you don't lose the hiding benefit or invis benefit until after the full attack.

It's an interesting discussion. Our group decided (possibly a house rule or maybe just a different interpretation of the rules) that after your first attack the target becomes aware of you and is thus no longer denied his dex bonus because you were hiding. If you have an official update that differs from this, I'd love to see it.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I wish I could point you to an official update on this. I think it was on this board, and not wizards. But a discussion on invisibility for 1st attack or full attack went on for quite a few pages. At the end I'm fairly certain someone emailed the sage and got an answer, that said you got the full attack off. Unfortunately I'm trying the search function but having problems.

Basic arguments were probably the same you saw in your discussion with your group, there weren't any brilliant insights so the discussion itself could be ignored if found. I was on the full attack yes side so my memory may be uncounscously biased.

 

[DM_Matt]

You believe incorrectly.

I stand corrected.

 

[Crothian]

If you are invisible and attacking a person, you get your sneak attack because they don't get their dex bonus to you. Same when hiding. They don't get their dex bonus until it's their turn. They are basically flat footed in relationship to you. That's how I read and use these rules.

 

[dr_nukem]

I agree with most of that statement. Excpet for the part about not getting their Dex bonus until their action. If they are denied their dex bonus because they are not aware of you (hidden/invisible) then reason would argue that they get that dex bonus as soon as they become aware of you...not when it's their action.

Another possible question is are you invisible for all your attacks or just your first? My understanding is just your first. In which case, only your first attack (of a full attack action) would be a sneak attack. After that, you are no longer invisible and thus, your opponent is no longer denied his dex and therefore each attack after the first in NOT a sneak attack.

Now, substitute hiding for invisible, repeat.

One potential way to handle this is to grant the invisible/hidden character a "surprise round" or partial action. So they get their 1 attack in that partial action...now do a initiative check for both parties. If the attacker wins, then the defender is considered flat-footed for all of the attacker's actions. If the defneder wins then he is not flat footed.

This method gives the person with better reflexes (ie, better initiative) the advantage...which is how it should be.

IMHO