Sneak attack?

[FrankTrollman]

Snipehunt:

That doesn't work.

In your example, the Rogue simply takes his five foot step, delays his action until the Fighter moves, the Fighter takes his 5 foot step and then attacks with a flanking bonus.

Then the Rogue full attacks, also with a flanking bonus.

The only consequence of your five foot step is to force the Rogue to voluntarily reduce his initiative to the of the Fighter (or vice versa).

Unless there are other characters on your side, this doesn't accomplish anything.

With the special initiative actions in mind, there is no way for a flanked character to get out of it without taking a move action himself.

-Frank

 

[Snipehunt]

Can you take a 5' step before delaying your action? I thought if you delayed, you had to take the 5' step when you delay.

By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act.

I thought if you delayed, you had to wait until you stopped delaying, then you could take your 5' step. I guess I've been playing it wrong - I thought there was no way both fighter and rogue get a full attack action and flank. Live and learn.

 

[Norfleet]

It doesn't matter either way: He can STILL wait for the fighter to move, THEN make his move. The fighter won't get any flanking bonusses in the process, but this is completely meaningless, because fighters really gain nothing from flanking anyway. So the fighter will simply slide into a position which allows the rogue to achieve flanking position with his free 5' move, and then the rogue will move. No difference either way.

What the opponent SHOULD be doing is not moving around like a moron, but instead simply moving straight into the rogue and grappling. No more sneak attacks. For the rogue to break grapple using escape artist will cost him an entire standard action, so he won't be able to attack. The opponent should therefore take his 5' move to break flanking, then immediately initiate grapple.

 

[LuYangShih]

Damn the grapple, just FRA that Rogue and pound him into the ground. Most Rogues will get destroyed by a FRA from an equal level fighter. Furthermore, creature type is not the only way to get to get around Sneak Attacking. Fortification armor is great if you have a villian capable of buying it, and any type of Concealment compleltey negates Sneak Attacks. A simple potion of Blur and the Rogue is mostly useless against whoever quaffed it.

And if you want to be a rat bastard, assuming your Rogue does not have Darkvision, apply the concealment rules for low light and darkness. Really amusing actually, by the book most Rogues cannot get Sneak Attack in a dimly lit alleyway. Sneak Attack is great if you can get it off, but with the massive amount of counters available, it is really an all or nothing ability.

 

[Norfleet]

If you're ready to invoke the darkness effect on the darkvision-impaired, you've already got a better way of wiping out the entire group than worrying about who can sneak attack who.

Simply close your book, and announce, "You have been eaten by a grue."

All players, of course, know full and well that the consequence of blundering around in the darkness is being eaten by a grue, so this is perfectly fair, and nobody can rightly complain.

 

[LuYangShih]

That is true, but it only applies in total darkness so it is balanced.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Simply close your book, and announce, "You have been eaten by a grue."

>frotz grue

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, The rogue can get a sneak attack in the surprise round, and then maybe another if he beats his opponent's initiative on the first real round.

His problem isn't one SA in the surprise round and one in the first round.

It's one SA, plus one from Expert Tactician, in the surprise round, and two from BAB, plus one from TWF, plus one from Boots of Speed or weapon of Speed (or Haste, cast in the surprise round by the sorcerer), plus one from Expert Tactician, in the first round, for a total of seven sneak attacks (all but one at highest BAB) before the opponent is no longer flat-footed.

Seven attacks at +4d6 is fairly potent at 8th level.

Of course, if the opponent is still standing at that point, the rogue should run away and let the barbarian handle it.

-Hyp.

 

[Snipehunt]

It doesn't matter either way: He can STILL wait for the fighter to move, THEN make his move. The fighter won't get any flanking bonusses in the process, but this is completely meaningless, because fighters really gain nothing from flanking anyway. So the fighter will simply slide into a position which allows the rogue to achieve flanking position with his free 5' move, and then the rogue will move. No difference either way.

It does matter. One PC can't flank, because one has to go first, even with delay. Frank was trying to set up a situation where the move of one could happen before the attack of the other, and then the one could attack. You can set it up so that the rogue is always moving last, which is your point - and a good one, I must admit.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It does matter. One PC can't flank, because one has to go first, even with delay.

With a Ready, you can do it, as long as someone's willing to sacrifice his Full Attack.

For two rogues, it might be worth it; for a fighter and a rogue, the fighter doesn't care about a measly +2 flanking bonus, so he'll just go first and full attack anyway.

-Hyp.