D&D General So how do Half-Elfs feel different to Elfs?

[Remathilis]

In order to simmer much more I'd have to take a nap. Why the insistence that I'm irrationally upset? Why would you think I'm telling anyone else how to play?

Apparently you're looking for a fight and I'm not interested. GG.

 

[Charlaquin]

I agree to a certain point and we can never truly understand how a different species would think. We certainly don't know (or perhaps accept) how much evolution has shaped our ideas, morality and view of the world. A certain level of evolutionary convergence is likely and it's quite possible that much like we have multiple species that all look like crabs many other species would think and look much like us. But I also think we could better explore what it means to be human by sometimes having a contrast instead of a mirror.

The carcination phenomenon (animals convergently evolving crablike body plans) is a bit overstated in pop science media. Like, it’s definitely a thing, but mostly among animals that aren’t too distantly related to crabs and face similar environmental pressures. There are a lot of similar examples of convergent evolution that for whatever reason don’t get near as much attention. For example, the analogous phenomenon for mammals would be mustilization - many mammal species convergentky evolving to be more weasel-like.

 

[AlViking]

But that's the same thing. Exploring "not X" is also just a way to understand X. A story about immortality is really a story about understanding mortality.

This is a discussion about options on how to portray elves so I'm not sure what you're saying or if we even disagree. I think we can tell very human stories by including non-human perspectives. We don't have to of course, Star Wars as another example certainly doesn't. I personally think fiction where most elves have a different approach to life more interesting, even if the differences are misinterpreted or subtle. Most elven NPCs come off as snooty and as not caring because of what they are.

Meanwhile it ties into how I would play an elven PC as an elf that is less than a century old. Much like a rebellious teenager may not understand their parent's POV, the relatively young elf could be closer to human than their parents because they are still finding out who they are.

 

[AlViking]

Apparently you're looking for a fight and I'm not interested. GG.

I'm not looking for a fight - you're the one who said I was upset. I was asking why you thought I was because as far as I can tell I gave no indication that I was. If you can't or don't want to explain that's fine as well.

 

[Morrus]

Simmer down. All I'm saying is that you may want some deeper exploration of what non-human life would be like, and someone else wants a pretty elf hat. Neither way is wrong.

In order to simmer much more I'd have to take a nap. Why the insistence that I'm irrationally upset? Why would you think I'm telling anyone else how to play?

Guys, if you're both going to report each other, please don't then continue to reply to each other and escalate things. I think the issue best solved if both of you refrain from responding to the other in this thread again, please. Thanks!

 

[TwoSix]

This is a discussion about options on how to portray elves so I'm not sure what you're saying or if we even disagree. I think we can tell very human stories by including non-human perspectives. We don't have to of course, Star Wars as another example certainly doesn't. I personally think fiction where most elves have a different approach to life more interesting, even if the differences are misinterpreted or subtle. Most elven NPCs come off as snooty and as not caring because of what they are.

But that's the point. All stories, from the perspective of a character, are human stories, because we lack the language to communicate actual non-human concepts. We can tell stories "about" non-humans, but we can't actually communicate a true non-human perspective. Any stories about non-humans from their own perspective are going to be stories about how their differing circumstances illustrate their differences from a human baseline.

 

[AlViking]

But that's the point. All stories, from the perspective of a character, are human stories, because we lack the language to communicate actual non-human concepts. We can tell stories "about" non-humans, but we can actually communicate a true non-human perspective. Any stories about non-humans from their own perspective are going to be stories about how their differing circumstances illustrate their differences from a human baseline.

Then I still don't know what you're trying to get at. Even though we can never know what an accurate depiction would look like, it doesn't mean we can't try.

It's bad enough with elves, where I find it really difficult is with fey creatures. It's another example where it's difficult to make them different and I think we could have an interesting discussion on how we could do that. But if all we're going to achieve is "Yes you can" and "No you can't" then there's no reason to continue the conversation.

 

[AlViking]

The carcination phenomenon (animals convergently evolving crablike body plans) is a bit overstated in pop science media. Like, it’s definitely a thing, but mostly among animals that aren’t too distantly related to crabs and face similar environmental pressures. There are a lot of similar examples of convergent evolution that for whatever reason don’t get near enough attention. For example, the analogous phenomenon for mammals would be mustilization - many mammal species convergentky evolving to be more weasel-like.)

I just picked one quick example that popped into my head, there are many examples of convergent evolution. A killer whale is not at all a close relative of sharks but if you didn't know one was a mammal and the other a fish you could say they look like they are closely related. They look similar, are both apex predators, share several features but with close inspection are completely different.

I don't really know how truly different species should be depicted in fiction any more than we really understand how neanderthal thought or behaved differently from homo sapiens. We have some clues as to the difference and we're learning more all the time but unless you can develop a time machine we'll never really know even though they were closely related.

So is there any way of depicting the different mentality of another species or should we just throw in the towel and say "Just slap on some prosthetics"?

 

[TwoSix]

Then I still don't know what you're trying to get at. Even though we can never know what an accurate depiction would look like, it doesn't mean we can't try.

The point is it to make sure you understand how you should try. You're never going to be able to portray, certainly in a TTRPG context, a truly nonhuman perspective. From that standpoint, all characters are "humans in funny suits". So the trick is to grasp on what aspect of the nonhuman character is in opposition to a recognizable human characteristic, not alien to our perspective. That's how you'll make your other ancestries feels like actual non-humans.

 

[Charlaquin]

I just picked one quick example that popped into my head, there are many examples of convergent evolution. A killer whale is not at all a close relative of sharks but if you didn't know one was a mammal and the other a fish you could say they look like they are closely related. They look similar, are both apex predators, share several features but with close inspection are completely different.

I don't really know how truly different species should be depicted in fiction any more than we really understand how neanderthal thought or behaved differently from homo sapiens. We have some clues as to the difference and we're learning more all the time but unless you can develop a time machine we'll never really know even though they were closely related.

So is there any way of depicting the different mentality of another species or should we just throw in the towel and say "Just slap on some prosthetics"?

Personally, I think a better question to ask is why do we want to depict the mentality of non-human species as significantly different from that of humans? There are many possible answers to that question, and they all point to different ways one ought to depict those species in order to achieve different goals.

For me, the answer is that alien mentalities can help hilight something interesting about human mentality by exaggerating it. Immortal elves are great for telling stories about grief, because their immortality burdens them with having to live to see everyone they once knew die, unless they isolate themselves from mortals completely, which can be viewed as analogous to pushing others away to avoid the pain of growing attached only to lose them. Elves can also serve as an effective representation of the time blindness experienced by folks with ADHD - an elf might struggle to manage their time because when you can live forever there is no real sense of time pressure. The temporal proximity to a future event can become abstract when the only real time-related categories you have schema for are “now” and “not now,” which can lead to things like important appointments and dates being completely forgotten.

Half-elves, on the other hand, serve a different allegorical role. Sure, they’re longer lived than humans, but in their case the purpose of that longer lifespan is not to explore stories of grief or time-blindness, but to reinforce their alienation from their peers. Too long-lived to fully empathize with other humans, too short-lived to fully empathize with other elves. As I’ve already gone on at length about in this thread, I see them as an allegory for the varied experiences of mixed-race individuals, and their lifespan and its effect on their mentality is in service to that allegory. Hence, the answer to the question of this thread of how they feel different from elves. They explore completely different facets of the human experience.