D&D (2024) So IS it a new edition?

So IS is a new edition?

  • No it’s not a new edition

    Votes: 125 46.5%
  • Yes it’s a new edition

    Votes: 144 53.5%

FitzTheRuke

Legend
I wouldn't be surprised if there's a 2034 revision. Before that? Who knows.
Oh, they'll probably be an experimental book like Tasha's in 4 years, give or take.

5.0 stans denied for years and years that there was anything wrong with its DMG.
I don't know where you'd find these "stans" - I've never seen anyone say much good about the DMG. The closest I've seen is that "there's some good stuff hidden in there if you actually read it" - hardly a glowing endorsement.

But the thrust of your post is true, hindsight usually reveals flaws and people are more open to discuss the flaws when they're talking about the old thing, rather than the current thing.

(Not that the "new" thing doesn't get slammed hard, like the upcoming PHB is sometimes, for things that it may or may not even contain).
 

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Sulicius

Adventurer
"Backward compatible" isn't an objective standard. It's all a sliding scale. I've played a very fun campaign in which the players used 5e stats and adventured in a 0e dungeon with me using unconverted 0e HPs, spell effects, etc. and handwaving everything that didn't work. Was so much fun I did another campaign with 5e characters and a Basic D&D dungeon. Worked fine. Does that mean that 5e is backwards compatible with 0e? No, not really.

Meanwhile a bunch of stuff like how races and backgrounds work in 5e are completely different from how they work in 5.5e. Can you make it work? Sure, but they're pretty different. Meanwhile 5e subclasses aren't compatible with 5.5e classes as the levels at which a lot of classes get subclass abilities are different in many cases. Is a 5e monk compatible with a 5.5e party? Technically yes, bit it'll be hilariously underpowered to the extent that it'll cause a lot of problems.

"Backwards compatibility" isn't going to be determined by anything that WotC says, it'll be determined by how many DMs mix and match 5e and 5.5e books. On the one hand as a kid we mixed 1e, 2e, and Basic books pretty freely and nobody really gave a naughty word if something was published for 1e or 2e. But on the other hand 3.5e was backwards compatible with 3e, officially at least, but I almost never saw DMs allowing 3e content in there 3.5e games so any claims about backwards compatibility didn't matter at all. Same with PF 1e and 3.5e.

Now if your home DM lets you stick Tasha's content on your 5.5e character then you're good to go, but I'm willing to bet that by the end of next year there'll be a pretty hard line between 5.5e and 5e tables and most DMs are not going to let players mix and match stuff.
But if you can run a 0e adventure, surely you can see that using older sublcasses will be really easy?
 

Scribe

Legend
I think you'll find that, once the edition is at least partially in the rear view mirror, people begin to be a lot more honest about its flaws than they were when it was the new hotness.

Larry David Reaction GIF


I mean whats the timescale here? Very very few things are 'perfect'. Some of us complained during the UA period for 5.5, is that allowed? Some have hated on 5e since NEXT. Some people say 4e was a betrayal of the entire brand, and you just said 3 (3.5/PF1 I assume) is a deeply flawed system.

People are honest all the time, just because someone disagrees doesnt mean either of them are lying, at least not in all cases.

I'll play more Shadowdark than I will 5.5, that isnt going to stop 5.5 from being the defacto RPG/D&D for the next decade.
 

Iosue

Legend
It seems to me that people are approaching the situation from the perspective of customer response to the rules as the primary driver of editions/revisions. But I think this fails to account for what historically has been the driver: plummeting sales.

Not in the sense, mind you, of “sales plummet because people are tired of the game.” Rather because, historically, a new core book release sees a spike in sales, and then plummets. This was the case for 1e, 2e, 3e, 3.5, and 4e.

In 1e’s case, the spike came a little later than the release due to the Egbert affair, but after the spike in ‘81, TSR was in dire enough financial straits to depose both Kevin Blume and Gary Gygax in rapid succession by 1985.

In 2e’s case, the sudden plummet after 1989 was offset by TSR’s increased reliance on the Random House deal as an off-the-books line of credit.

When the game was taken over by people who actually knew how to run a business, it was immediately seen that “release an edition every 10 years” was untenable. So, 3.5 comes out 3 years after 3e, 4e comes out 5 years after 3.5, Essentials comes out 3 years after 4e, and finally 5e comes out 3 years after Essentials. To be sure, customer feedback reflected how those products were revised, but the revisions themselves were driven by the rapid decline of sales after release.

5e, for a number of reasons, finally broke this pattern by having sustained growth through most of its lifespan. Still, WotC knows it’s passed it’s peak, and sales will only go down from here.

But, what 5e and now the 2024 rules have that none of the other versions had, is a critical mass of subscriptions, WotC’s long desired holy grail. 4e had a prototype, but the digital market was still immature: VTTs were still in their infancy, and smartphones and tablets were not there to integrate digital tools at the table.

Now, WotC doesn’t just have a successful digital subscription service they can rely on for sustainable revenue, they also have their licensing agreements with multiple other digital platforms, another source of revenue.

And this is reflected in the changes to the rules. Not in the old bugaboo of changing the rules to make it easier to play online. But rather, in a new-found conservatism in rule changes. In the old paradigm, they wanted to drastically change the rules to force the purchase of new books—either by customers who wanted to keep up, or by new players who had no interest in the previous version.

Now they want to maintain continuity, to encourage people to stay subscribed, to keep good-selling ancillary products available for purchase, if only in digital format once printing becomes too costly.

But most importantly, having these streams of revenue reduces the financial incentive for a big rules overhaul. There will undoubtedly be trends in design iterations in the coming years, but they have no need to make anything that departs from the 5e rule set that they (and other 5e publishers) are iterating on.
 

Oofta

Legend
Oh, they'll probably be an experimental book like Tasha's in 4 years, give or take.
...

Splat books that give updates? I'm not sure we'll even need 4 years. They could release a book of updated versions of some of the subclasses and other options not included in the PHB next year. But to your point, something that really adds some fundamental change wouldn't surprise me in a few years. There's a long line of those kind of things going back ... well pretty much all the way for every edition. I just think that's different from a fundamental update to core classes and rules.
 

Oofta

Legend
It seems to me that people are approaching the situation from the perspective of customer response to the rules as the primary driver of editions/revisions. But I think this fails to account for what historically has been the driver: plummeting sales.

Not in the sense, mind you, of “sales plummet because people are tired of the game.” Rather because, historically, a new core book release sees a spike in sales, and then plummets. This was the case for 1e, 2e, 3e, 3.5, and 4e.

In 1e’s case, the spike came a little later than the release due to the Egbert affair, but after the spike in ‘81, TSR was in dire enough financial straits to depose both Kevin Blume and Gary Gygax in rapid succession by 1985.

In 2e’s case, the sudden plummet after 1989 was offset by TSR’s increased reliance on the Random House deal as an off-the-books line of credit.

When the game was taken over by people who actually knew how to run a business, it was immediately seen that “release an edition every 10 years” was untenable. So, 3.5 comes out 3 years after 3e, 4e comes out 5 years after 3.5, Essentials comes out 3 years after 4e, and finally 5e comes out 3 years after Essentials. To be sure, customer feedback reflected how those products were revised, but the revisions themselves were driven by the rapid decline of sales after release.

5e, for a number of reasons, finally broke this pattern by having sustained growth through most of its lifespan. Still, WotC knows it’s passed it’s peak, and sales will only go down from here.

But, what 5e and now the 2024 rules have that none of the other versions had, is a critical mass of subscriptions, WotC’s long desired holy grail. 4e had a prototype, but the digital market was still immature: VTTs were still in their infancy, and smartphones and tablets were not there to integrate digital tools at the table.

Now, WotC doesn’t just have a successful digital subscription service they can rely on for sustainable revenue, they also have their licensing agreements with multiple other digital platforms, another source of revenue.

And this is reflected in the changes to the rules. Not in the old bugaboo of changing the rules to make it easier to play online. But rather, in a new-found conservatism in rule changes. In the old paradigm, they wanted to drastically change the rules to force the purchase of new books—either by customers who wanted to keep up, or by new players who had no interest in the previous version.

Now they want to maintain continuity, to encourage people to stay subscribed, to keep good-selling ancillary products available for purchase, if only in digital format once printing becomes too costly.

But most importantly, having these streams of revenue reduces the financial incentive for a big rules overhaul. There will undoubtedly be trends in design iterations in the coming years, but they have no need to make anything that departs from the 5e rule set that they (and other 5e publishers) are iterating on.

I agree, but I will also say that IMHO the 5E rules have more staying power simply because they provide better support for the entire life cycle of a PC. While I never got to particularly high levels in TSR versions of D&D because we never rewarded XP for GP, both 3.x and 4 kind of fell apart at higher levels for completely different reasons. I know some people say high level play doesn't work in 5E either, but I've seen it multiple times now with only minimal house rules.

But I don't know if anyone really knows why 5E has been as successful as it has been. It just seems to hit a sweet spot for what a lot of people want out of the game. Whether it will continue to be the more-or-less right product at the right time remains to be seen.

As far as the subscription service, times are-a-changing and the new models are simply more feasible and easier to implement than they've ever been. On the other hand don't discount that they're still selling plenty of PHBs for a TTRPG after a decade.
 

Iosue

Legend
I don't know where you'd find these "stans" - I've never seen anyone say much good about the DMG. The closest I've seen is that "there's some good stuff hidden in there if you actually read it" - hardly a glowing endorsement.
I like the DMG! It has all the stuff I want and need. I don’t even think it’s disorganized!

But, I think it’s very fair to say that it doesn’t contain what many people seem to want it to contain.
 
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Iosue

Legend
As far as the subscription service, times are-a-changing and the new models are simply more feasible and easier to implement than they've ever been. On the other hand don't discount that they're still selling plenty of PHBs for a TTRPG after a decade.
Absolutely. It could certainly be argued that 5e’s incredible run as a print game is what allowed it to establish its subscription model.

Imagine if 5e acted like every other edition and dropped 50% its second year. The digital tools might have been abandoned when Dungeonscape fell through, and 5e might have ended up looking very similar to 4e. Instead, it grew in 2015-2016, and 2016-2017, giving time (and incentive) for the development of D&D Beyond.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The thing is

No one would call this book 6e

If you aren't willing to increase the number, then it isn't a new edition.
That isn't how it works. Things don't cease to be what they are just because some people aren't willing to acknowledge them for what they are. An unwillingness to increase the number doesn't keep it from being a new edition.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Of course, but it's not an insult to trust us to understand their messaging. Of course, they didn't take into account the misinformation campaigns working against them. And they're terrible at being really straight forward, I'll grant.
I feel out of the loop here. What misinformation campaigns are being waged against WotC?
 

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