So, Wandavision?

[Maxperson]

I think she wasn't sure how it would play out exactly, but that she had a chance of turning it around.

I think she was surprised, but not completely surprised.

Maybe. I just don't think it was clear cut enough to say sociopath or planned. I can't wait for tomorrow. Well, I can, because I have to, but I don't want to wait for tomorrow.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I got the feeling she had no control over what it did to the regular members, but when it came to her mother, I think Agatha was in full control of the draining/killing. So part accidental/not controlled and part intentional/controlled. And not showing emotion on camera over her mother does not mean much. Delayed emotional reactions are very much a real thing.

 

[Maxperson]

I got the feeling she had no control over what it did to the regular members, but when it came to her mother, I think Agatha was in full control of the draining/killing. So part accidental/not controlled and part intentional/controlled. And not showing emotion on camera over her mother does not mean much. Delayed emotional reactions are very much a real thing.

As is emotional shutdown, which that situation could have caused.

 

[Rune]

But let’s not forget. The one thing we know about Agatha’s personality is that she is manipulative. It may be true that she feels remorse and has empathy, but we would be unwise to trust it.

 

[Umbran]

Delayed emotional reactions are very much a real thing.

With respect, in the real world, that is true. But this is television. This is telling a story, which is not the same as "depicting the way it is in the real world in realtime." Stuff has to appear on screen for it to be relevant. They have ways and tropes for telegraphing, "this character is so shocked by events that they have no real response yet."

And taking jewelry off the dead body (with a satisfied look iirc) isn't among those ways.

Edit: I just re-watched the scene. She starts with claims she knows nothing of the crimes¹. Then moves to claiming she didn't break "your rules"², but merely bent them. Then, after everyone but her mother is dead, she retreats to, "I can be good," effectively recognizing that she has not been good to this point.

I don't see how this gets read as her being on teh right side of morals or ethics, or secretly a good (or even okay) person. I can only take it as a deep expectation that the writers will pull a "Gotcha!" moment for Agatha, because none of that is present in the text to date.


1. Which includes taking magics above her age and station, and practicing the darkest of magics - so it isn't that she hasn't actually done anything yet. She used forbidden stuff.

2. Thus, positioning herself as separate from the others from whom she's been learning, which traditionally is an assertion that she's above or beyond the rule of her peers.

 

[pukunui]

I wonder if her mother’s brooch is a magic item or if she just took it for sentimental reasons or what.

That said, it’s unlikely we’ll find out tonight. It’s a curiosity rather than a plot point.

I hope we get to see Monica use her newfound powers in the finale!

And wouldn’t it be nice to find out what happened to agent Franklin?

 

[Blue]

Yes it is. In the first instance, Agatha was a member of their society ("Are you a witch?" "I am a witch.") who had transgressed against its regulations; in the second, Agatha is a self-appointed judge, jury and torturer.

Torturer - that's the part you need to show. That Agnes is doing it to hurt Wanda.

Show that it's not the cut of a scapel trying to break Wanda out of whatever mental trap she's retreated to. To wake up and see what she's doing. Not even just for altruistic reasons - she's clearly not a hero - but just because that might bring attention of the magical world that is unwanted.

Heck, just show that the dog is even dead, since we know Agnes can do illusions.

The former is the accidental outcome of an unwitting act, and the latter is the deliberate result of conscious choices. The latter is clearly more sadistic.

"Sadistic" is a judgement about her motives. You seem sure on them, but what's been presented in the show has ambiguity. If the writers wanted us to know she's evil, a change in the line of the witch's execution to show unpardonable acts or some other aspect outside her reactions (which you claim as faked) could easily have been included.

But instead the charge is vague, her own mother rejects her, and the only information we have is her begging for guidance and the feelings of surprise, which even if you ignore without reason doesn't leave any proof she's sadistic and just trying to harm Wanda. The best guess we have from her words and actions is that she's jealous, greedy and vain about her magic, and wants to know Wanda's secrets. But none of that supports sadistic and a want to cause pain.

 

[Umbran]

Torturer - that's the part you need to show. That Agnes is doing it to hurt Wanda.

Yeah. That's not supported in the text. Agnes is out to get information from Wanda, not specifically to cause her pain.

Show that it's not the cut of a scapel trying to break Wanda out of whatever mental trap she's retreated to. To wake up and see what she's doing.

Minor correction - to wake up and tell Agness how she's doing it. While Agnes may not specifically out to hurt Wanda, personally, this is not for Wanda's benefit. It is for Agnes' benefit.

Heck, show that the dog is even dead, since we know Agnes can do illusions.

She says so. "I killed Sparky". What we have seen no longer supports the idea that Agnes/Agatha was ever under Wanda's control. Therefore, she's not making Agnes say those things. That's Agnes' statement, not a Wanda-show-rewrite of reality.

If you really want it, there's is an argument that Sparky wasn't a real dog, but just a bug that was transformed, but that Agnes didn't kill Sparky seems off the table. And, I think that's quite deliberate. Being willing to hurt animals is a big, "I don't have real empathy," flag for the viewer in all sorts of genres.

 

[ART!]

But instead the charge is vague, her own mother rejects her, and the only information we have is her begging for guidance and the feelings of surprise, which even if you ignore without reason doesn't leave any proof she's sadistic and just trying to harm Wanda. The best guess we have from her words and actions is that she's jealous, greedy and vain about her magic, and wants to know Wanda's secrets. But none of that supports sadistic and a want to cause pain.

If the bolded part refers to the assertion that she knew what would happen with her coven sisters and mother, my post about that was based on my reading of Kathryn Hahn's performance. It's possible I've misread her performance, which could be her fault, mine, the director's, the editor's, or one or more of the above, but it's not "without reason" - art criticism doesn't consist of verifiable facts only. I read the scene as "Agatha kind of knows what she's doing here".

If that's not what you're refering to, then

.

 

[Blue]

If the bolded part refers to the assertion that she knew what would happen with her coven sisters and mother, my post about that was based on my reading of Kathryn Hahn's performance. It's possible I've misread her performance, which could be her fault, mine, the director's, the editor's, or one or more of the above, but it's not "without reason" - art criticism doesn't consist of verifiable facts only. I read the scene as "Agatha kind of knows what she's doing here".

If that's not what you're refering to, then

.

I was refering to Davies repeated claim without providing support that everything Agnes did in the witch trial scene was faked and that this was an absolute.

You on the other hand discuss in good faith. You talk about why, and don't try to just claim it multiple times without supporting detail. While we don't have the same read on it, it's a pleasure discussing and debating with you.

And my actual read on it is: the writers are intentionally vague in some spots to leave open multiple interpretations. I don't think Agatha is nice, but I do think that there's enlightened self-interest in what she does to Wanda, not pure sadism or evil-for-evil's sake. For instance I think -- but don't have firm support -- that Agatha bares no malice to the Westview residents and isn't taking sadistic glee from their entrapment and agony.