So what about the everyman?

[Brother MacLaren]

The point still remains though, the PC, by 3rd, 4th level, can wipe the floor with any regular NPC. While you might start as an everyman, you're only that for 1, MAYBE, 2 levels. After that, you're pretty much Superman.

I'd put the BD&D transition from "everyman" to "action hero" at about level 4 (I think that's the point at which the B/X fighter gets improved attack rolls and saving throws). At this point, with an average of 20 HP or so, the fighter can survive several rounds of attacks from a horde of goblins. His AC might be around 1 or so (Plate Mail, Shield, +1 Dex; equivalent to 19 in 3E), and he might have a magic sword. He's still not a superhero, not walking through lava or shrugging off 60' falls, but he's quite tough. You might see him as an Indiana Jones type -- he doesn't seem to be really superhuman, but he overcomes odds that most people couldn't by luck, experience, and skill. Still, if a large group of armed Normal Men caught him unarmed and unarmored, they could probably defeat him.

Getting there took MONTHS of real-world time. The character is an "everyman" hero, not all that different from a "Normal Man," for the formative first 3 levels, and for many gaming sessions. And no matter what, he will NEVER be stronger than the strongest Normal Man (18 Str). That's the absolute human limit; being a Main Character doesn't change that.

3E gave PCs several advantages relative to NPCs at 1st level. Better class abilities and starting gold (which they had before) plus maximum HP and better ability scores (which they didn't have before). Many games had other PC-only benefits, such as Luck Points. 3E made clear that PCs are a superior class of being, and to a greater degree than they used to be. 4E looks to stretch this even further.

This isn't a binary question of "Either PCs are 'Everyman' or PCs are 'uber." It's a spectrum. It is my opinion that BD&D kept PCs much closer to "everyman" levels than 3E did, and certainly much closer than 4E looks to. Whether or not you agree with this change, I think it is important to recognize that is a change.

 

[Hussar]

Getting there took MONTHS of real-world time. The character is an "everyman" hero, not all that different from a "Normal Man," for the formative first 3 levels, and for many gaming sessions. And no matter what, he will NEVER be stronger than the strongest Normal Man (18 Str). That's the absolute human limit; being a Main Character doesn't change that.

Umm, my 1st level fighter had a 2 AC in Basic D&D. Plate mail was 60 gp. Shield was another 15 IIRC. 3d6x10 gp, and it's not too far out of line. That means, at even 1st level, most things couldn't hit you except in very large groups.

As far as the MONTHS of real world time goes, well, IIRC, Basic was like AD&D and gave you xp for gp. We've already shot this old horse. You rocket up the levels pretty quickly if you played modules. Sell a couple of those extra +1 swords that you dug up and poof, you gained a level.

Basic D&D characters started with maximum hp. The starting gold was lower, but, the costs were significantly lower as well.

Walking through lava, by RAW is still 20d6 damage. You aren't shrugging that off at 1st-5th level in 3e either. 60 foot fall does the same damage - 6d6. The hit points are the same, by and large at lower levels.

Looking at it another way, a 3rd level 3e fighter can be killed in one round from a single orc with a greataxe. Normal, run of the mill, Monster Manual orc. How many orcs would it take to do 20 points of damage in Basic D&D?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So the game with fewer high level characters and rarer magic weapons is the Monte Haul one?

Ummm. NO.

IME, it was fairly typical for entire parties to be virtually magic item-less until 3rd or 4th level.

With DMG typical distribution, a party of 2nd or 3rd level types raising hell in town had to behave, and typically still had to beware the city watch until after 5th level.

 

[Firevalkyrie]

Now, another aspect of this: the common pot-boy goes adventuring heroes you mention don't do all that much adventuring! They simply don't do the things that the vast majority of D&D characters do. They run away and hide a lot more than even lowbie D&D characters. They don't charge orcs, they don't have access to even a first level mage's firepower, they aren't good with weapons, etc. The only fight I can recall the hobbits getting into that didn't wind up with a hobbit on his butt screaming for help was Sam attacking Shelob.

How about Merry hitting the Witch King with his mighty Backstab o' Death?

 

[DandD]

The LotR-Witch King was appearantly only a level 4-6 character.

 

[Hussar]

Just to go back to John McLane for a second.

My idea of an everyman is not a well muscled police officer trained in automatic weapons and explosives.

That's an individual with lots of specialized training.

 

[beholdsa]

The LotR-Witch King was appearantly only a level 4-6 character.

Sounds about right. I'd put the Witch King at around level 6. And Merry at that point at around level 2.

(All this based on how "over the top" each of the characters feel. Middle-Earth characters [from the books, not movies] generally feel around level 1 to 6. The only possible exceptions are the Balrog, the five wizards and Sauron himself.]

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Umm, my 1st level fighter had a 2 AC in Basic D&D. Plate mail was 60 gp. Shield was another 15 IIRC. 3d6x10 gp, and it's not too far out of line. That means, at even 1st level, most things couldn't hit you except in very large groups.

AC 2 at first level is quite possible. AC didn't improve as fast as it does in 3E, so a fighter would often have the same AC at 4th level. The first Ring of Protection +1 you found probably went to the party wizard, and the first Shield +1 you found probably went to the cleric.

As far as how good AC 2 is, IIRC, 1-HD monsters had a THAC0 of 19, hitting an AC 2 on an 17. Good, but at 1st-level any one hit can kill you (two hits if you rolled maximum HP and had a Con bonus).

As far as the MONTHS of real world time goes, well, IIRC, Basic was like AD&D and gave you xp for gp. We've already shot this old horse. You rocket up the levels pretty quickly if you played modules. Sell a couple of those extra +1 swords that you dug up and poof, you gained a level.

There were no magic shops. There were no prices listed for magic items in BD&D; and on top of that there were several monsters in the Basic Set alone that could wreck your magic items (rust monster, iron living statue, and grey ooze IIRC). So you kept the extras, or saved them for when you got followers.

Basic D&D characters started with maximum hp.

No, they didn't.

The hit points are the same, by and large at lower levels.

A 3E fighter is more likely to have a high Con, and he's going to get more benefit from that Con (+2 at 14 instead of +1). He'll have maximum HP at 1st level and a higher HD. Hit points are MUCH higher. A lucky BD&D fighter (13-15 Con) has 5.5 hp per level. The typical 3E fighter has 4.5+7.5/level (assuming 14 Con). At 4th level, that's 8-36 (avg. 22) vs. 21-48 (avg. 34.5). A 57% increase in the average.

But since damage has changed, do HP mean the same thing? Yes and no. Orcs do much more damage, kobolds and goblins and hobgoblins are about the same as always. Large monsters do more damage, as do THW attacks by strong enemies, but falling damage, most base weapon damage, town guards' crossbows, most attacks by "Normal Men" and weak enemies, wizards' non-magical attacks, and Fireball are about the same as before.

 

[Thunderfoot]

As far as your points about 3e xp, you do realize that 1e only rewarded xp for killing stuff and taking their loot. Anything you did beyond that was entirely your own creation. How is that any shorter of attention span than 3e?

Actually, that is not the case, they were suggested XP based upon defeat of the enemy, not just killing them. read your DMG a little closer, it wasn't until much later that the XP values were assigned directly to monsters (MM2 IIARC, but I would have to check.) before it was a sliding table based upon suggested HD and what the DM decided based upon his/her alteration, and ad hoc points were encouraged for in game heroics, good roleplay, etc.

 

[Thunderfoot]

Don't worry, you can quote me all you want... I don't get offended by debate. But I think this ability you attribute to me is unwarranted, as I think I still haven't clearly articulated what I'm trying to...<SNIP>

But I take this as simply the designers realizing they need to do a little more to allow you character to be the hero in the book instead of a redshirt that bites it on page 2.
<SNIP>

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Ok, now THIS I get. ( Excuse me I have to go change my underwear.)