So what about the everyman?

[Lord Xtheth]

Try working it out with your DM.
I mean, I'm pretty sure that not every power you have opened up to you at each level are
SUPER SPECIAL AWESOME BLOW YOUR OPPONENT UP SECRET ATTACK #12!
If you want to play a self-witheld, or (dare I say it) self-nerfed character, run it by your DM. I mean if you don't want the big bad mean evil nasty super attack of doom, don't take it. It's that simple.
This means that the baddies who are written up in the monster manual and built to face the people who do have the mega crush your skull super duper move from hell might be a little too much for you to handle, so the DM should be prepared to compensate for your lack of mega giga mondo planet-busting crane-style flurry kick.


Man, I should be on Wizards Name R&D

 

[WayneLigon]

...(though by 4th level they were usually beginning to reach beyond scope.) Which is what I'm afraid of, am I doomed to run characters to 3rd level and then ditch my campaign?

If you're thinking that they are overpowered at 4th level now, then I'm thinking you're looking at needing to go to another game or look at Ryan's E6 stuff where you never go past 6th level. I'm not sure what that other game would be, since D&D is pretty much the only game that keeps characters 'down on the farm' so to speak at early levels. Usually the focus of a character in other games is narrower, but they generally are much more competant than a low level D&D character is right out of the starting gate. About the only thing that comes to mind is GURPS.

Now, another aspect of this: the common pot-boy goes adventuring heroes you mention don't do all that much adventuring! They simply don't do the things that the vast majority of D&D characters do. They run away and hide a lot more than even lowbie D&D characters. They don't charge orcs, they don't have access to even a first level mage's firepower, they aren't good with weapons, etc. The only fight I can recall the hobbits getting into that didn't wind up with a hobbit on his butt screaming for help was Sam attacking Shelob.

D&D of almost any edition is going to do a poor job of emulating those heroes even in the beginning and after about 5th, that idea will have gone out the window once they can access the mass-damage spells.

 

[Drammattex]

I've read all the tidbits so far and I don't think I know enough to make a guess.

However, fighters being able to "heal themselves" is a huge step in the direction of the Everyman game (thank God).

I usually try to run Everyman games. That's the kind of fantasy I enjoy most (A Song of Ice and Fire). The NEED for a magical healer in D&D has always rubbed me the wrong way. Lately, I've been banning clerics and using Iron Heroes reserve points for healing.

If a party of fighters and rogues (the true Everyman classes, IMO) can get through an adventure without wizards and clerics, I think I can make an Everyman game of it. Certainly hope so.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

If you're thinking that they are overpowered at 4th level now, then I'm thinking you're looking at needing to go to another game or look at Ryan's E6 stuff where you never go past 6th level. I'm not sure what that other game would be, since D&D is pretty much the only game that keeps characters 'down on the farm' so to speak at early levels. Usually the focus of a character in other games is narrower, but they generally are much more competant than a low level D&D character is right out of the starting gate. About the only thing that comes to mind is GURPS.

He's pretty much right here, about the only other game left to try for the feel you like is GURPS. Exalted using mortal rules only can have a similar feel at times, but you might not like the overall flavor.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Nothing I have seen indicates that the characters in 4e are going to be superheroic.

The triple maximum HP at first level are leaning this way. It really depends on how they handle monster HP.

A 1st-level fighter with 14 Con will have 32 HP; if nothing changes, that's more than an ogre. He can be shot with five heavy crossbow bolts and keep fighting. He can fall 60' and expect to walk away from it. If he were just slightly outside the realm of the average person, you could chalk it up to luck. But his combined durability and luck (HP) are quite far above the norm.

Some things, such as base weapon damage and falling damage, have changed relatively little since early editions. HP have been inflated tremendously for PCs and certain monsters. Look at BD&D; a fighter had 1d8 HD, no max at 1st level, and likely only a +1 from Con, so he'd hit 32 hp at about 5th-6th level. That would be the point where he could take five heavy crossbow hits or fall 60'.

 

[pawsplay]

Leaping over the heads of opponents and deftly stabbing them in the back is superheroic. Smiting a bad guy and having little green numbers heal all your allies is pretty superheroic, too. Triple hit points at first level? Going to level thirty?

All seems a little superheroic to me.

 

[kennew142]

The triple maximum HP at first level are leaning this way. It really depends on how they handle monster HP.

A 1st-level fighter with 14 Con will have 32 HP; if nothing changes, that's more than an ogre. He can be shot with five heavy crossbow bolts and keep fighting. He can fall 60' and expect to walk away from it. If he were just slightly outside the realm of the average person, you could chalk it up to luck. But his combined durability and luck (HP) are quite far above the norm.

Some things, such as base weapon damage and falling damage, have changed relatively little since early editions. HP have been inflated tremendously for PCs and certain monsters. Look at BD&D; a fighter had 1d8 HD, no max at 1st level, and likely only a +1 from Con, so he'd hit 32 hp at about 5th-6th level. That would be the point where he could take five heavy crossbow hits or fall 60'.

I suppose I don't consider making a character more survivable to be making them more superheroic. I don't know what will happen to monster HP, but it is likely that an ogre will have HP determined by his monster level. They may be higher than they are now, or not. While the 1st level fighter with 32 hit points could take 5 crossbow hits with the current weapon damage, we can assume that characters will have talents that can increase the damage. In other words, they may not be able to take five hits with a crossbow given all of the other elements at play.

I still maintain that making characters more surviveable is not a bad thing. Since HP have always been a combination of luck, skill and toughness, I think it is reasonable that characters may be able to twist out of the way, partially deflect the damage with a shield, etc...

One of the problems I've always had in D&D is that 1st level characters are all too fragile. In the Living Arcanis game, characters get maximum hit points for the first three levels, and get their first two levels worth of hit points at first level. This rule has worked very well for all involved*. Nothing is more frustrating than losing low level characters repeatedly because they are incapable of surviving more than one hit.

I believe that increasing the hit points of first level characters will make story oriented games easier. It will finally allow my group to start characters at first level again. We've been starting them at 3rd for quite some time now.

*If you haven't checked out Living Arcanis, you may want to give it a try. IMNSHO, it is the best shared world (or campaign setting) for D&D 3.5.

 

[mhensley]

If you want Joe Average, it's pretty easy to do. Just roll up your stats 3d6 in order or assign 10 to each one. I'm pretty sure you won't feel too superhero-ish doing that in any edition.

Or you can use my system for running D&D like Warhammer:

At its heart, WFRP is D&D with the twist of the players being normal people instead of young superheroes. Basic D&D used to do this as well but through the years D&D has escalated character's powers to sometimes absurd levels. To make D&D more like WFRP, you just have to tone this down a few notches. Here's how.

Character Creation
* Players choose their starting race.
* Players roll their stats in order- 5d6, drop the highest and the lowest. Add in race modifiers. Raise any one score below 10 to 10. This produces very average scores.
* Players then roll 1d10 for their starting class on the following table. Elves, halflings, and gnomes add 1 to this roll. Dwarves and Half-orcs subtract 2.

1- Barbarian
2 Fighter
3 Ranger
4 Rogue
5 Monk
6 Wizard
7 Cleric
8 Paladin
9 Sorcerer
10+ Bard

Here's an example of a character created by these rules. I want to play a dwarf. After rolling and adding his modifiers, I get: Str-10, Dex-12, Con-12, Int-11, Wis-10, Cha-6. Very average joe. I then roll a 6 -2 = 4 for his starting class- a Rogue. It will definitely be a struggle to survive with this pc, but ultimately that what the feel of WFRP is all about. And after your group pelts you with 4-siders for trying this out on them, maybe someone else will offer to DM for once.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I still maintain that making characters more surviveable is not a bad thing.

I didn't say it was a bad thing, but it certainly is different. It places the PCs further beyond the "ordinary people" than they had been before.
BD&D: Fighter has about 1d8+1 hp; "Normal Man" has 1d4 IIRC
2E: Fighter has about 1d10+1; "0-level human" depends on profession but usually about 1d6
3E: Fighter has about 12 (max HP, +2 Con); "NPC-classed non-elite" is 1d4 to 1d8
4E: Fighter has about 32; "Normal Man" is... ?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

A simple "everyman" fix (HP related only) might be to start at "level -1", which means you have only 1/3 your expected hp. At 0 you have 1/2, and at 1st level, you're at normal level. At level -1, you fight Goblin Minions, probably run from regular Goblins and definitely once Elite Goblins are in sight. At 0th level, a Goblin Minion is acceptable, a regular Goblin a fight you can take, and an Elite Goblin a situation where you'd better run.