D&D 5E (+) So, what have you done to make martials feel better?


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Stormonu

Legend
I’d also like to see some more expansions on Fighting Styles and ways to improve them (say at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th - not just choosing new styles). Along with possibly two additional paths - Fearsome Striker (improves weapon attacks in a way similar to the monk’s ability to improve unarmed attacks) and Horde Breaker (allows the fighter to use a single attack to make area effect attacks, similar to whirlwind attacks). The latter might need some sort of limitation - requires a special action that replaces multiple attacks?
 


Vaalingrade

Legend
I’d also like to see some more expansions on Fighting Styles and ways to improve them (say at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th - not just choosing new styles). Along with possibly two additional paths - Fearsome Striker (improves weapon attacks in a way similar to the monk’s ability to improve unarmed attacks) and Horde Breaker (allows the fighter to use a single attack to make area effect attacks, similar to whirlwind attacks). The latter might need some sort of limitation - requires a special action that replaces multiple attacks?
When I first heard talk of subclasses, this is what I thought they were going to be, TBH.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Most folks will talk about combat stuff, but I want more in the other pillars. I know they are beefing backgrounds and that will help, but still the fighter could use some out of combat utility and social buffs.
Yeah I’m considering giving them an ability starting at level 3, to turn one ability check or saving throw failure into a success, PB/LR.

At level 9, instead of indomitable, they can spend a use of the ability to allow all allies making the same check (so group checks and multi target saves) to gain advantage on the check.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
The good warlocks are good above average classes, the poor ones are below average. As a multiclass option though Undead and Genie are top flight on a 1 or 2 level dip. I would add hexblade to that list as well on a Paladin multiclass.

I don't know if it is really because they are warlocks or because they are whiners. I have played Warlocks, including weak Warlocks. and have had fun.

One hypothesis is that new players do not fully consider the limited spell slots or the mechanic of only having higher level spell slots. When playing a Warlock you need something other than your spells, it does not work well as a pseudo wizard or sorcerer. Having 2 high level spells per short rest means they have more "crowd pleasers" than any class assuming multiple short rests, however if they throw a leveled spell they either have to go nova or they are wasting power. While a 10th level wizard might throw a 1st level burning hands to finish off a Troll near the end of a fight, the Warlock does not have that option, he has to go with a 5th level spell or downselect to a cantrip or weapon attack. This also means low level out of combat spells like comprehend languages have a very high cost to cast.

That is just a hypothesis, I can't say that is the reason why and if you understand the mechanics going in you can work around them.
I really think the warlock needs more invocations and the ability to regain 1 spell slot as an action PB/LR.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I said it before.

Analyse the various high power archetypes of martials.
Make them subclasses in full power.
Let DMs ban the ones that don't match the setting.
 



Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
in theory how hard would it be for paliden and ranger to fold into fighter?
If the Eldritch Knight is acceptable model it would be easy but I get the impression the Paladin is a better designed class. Lower amounts of magic is how they started out (you didnt get any till higher els) has been done before but I think the perception of paladins has changed over time and rangers have waffled around and in original form you didnt get spells right away just a few other abilities but you were also fighter plus plus and class balance was a nyeh. The current fighter does not allow a ton of subclass power in my opinion. I think it would depend on how much the subclass is allowed to do? The Paladin is sort of a half caster now the eldritch knight is a 1/3... hmmmm. It might be worth considering.

In 4e I built a Paladin that was a fighter with the Boon 'Pelor's Sun Blessing' and it fits my concept of Paladin. Though I think there are a few Paladin powers in 4e that I would have liked on a fighter.
 
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SakanaSensei

Adventurer
in theory how hard would it be for paliden and ranger to fold into fighter?
I think that it could be done if there were some structural changes to allow for Subclasses that could, optionally, have a greater impact on play style. But throw some primal magic at a fighter, give them some skill expertise in survival and stealth, and let them pick a quarry when you roll initiative and give a bonus die of damage against their quarry? Well hell, that’s pretty ranger-y to me.

Paladin may be trickier, but could be pulled off with multiple subclasses. I think a divine half-caster with some supportive abilities would hit most of the beats.

Now that I think about it, bump up eldritch knight to half caster arcane progression, then have ranger as half caster primal and Paladin as half caster divine… I like how that ends up looking.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
OK yeh to be concise LOL
Well there are real levels to the rangeriness or paladinosity.

It's like the Beastmaster ranger. There was not enough space to make the Beastmaster people wanted within the ranger. You definitely couldnt fit the Beastmaster or Green Knight in the fighter.

Could you put ranger and paladin back in fighter? Sure. Would more than 25% of the fans like the outcome? Nah.
 

SakanaSensei

Adventurer
Well there are real levels to the rangeriness or paladinosity.

It's like the Beastmaster ranger. There was not enough space to make the Beastmaster people wanted within the ranger. You definitely couldnt fit the Beastmaster or Green Knight in the fighter.

Could you put ranger and paladin back in fighter? Sure. Would more than 25% of the fans like the outcome? Nah.
What if they opened up design space to let subclass features replace class features? Give up your action surge for beast companion, give up second wind for some kind of maneuver your beast could learn to protect allies or take down a weakened opponent. I think it sounds neat.

WotC is definitely not going to do anything of the sort, but WotC also isn’t my dad, and given recent product quality, they may as well be one of many publishers as far as I’m concerned. The difference between the best homebrewers I’ve seen and WotC is art budget.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
What if they opened up design space to let subclass features replace class features? Give up your action surge for beast companion, give up second wind for some kind of maneuver your beast could learn to protect allies or take down a weakened opponent. I think it sounds neat.

WotC is definitely not going to do anything of the sort, but WotC also isn’t my dad, and given recent product quality, they may as well be one of many publishers as far as I’m concerned. The difference between the best homebrewers I’ve seen and WotC is art budget.
Ehh. Still don't see it working.

Like you couldn't even fit the PHB ranger or paladin in the fighter even with class feature substitutions. There just isn't the room. And the PHB ranger was almost universally panned.

And then you go back you weakening the fighter archetype to fit in the other classes.

If you really look at most RPGs where the "Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger are Fighters", you find that the accents are often very shallow. You end up with less Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger and more Fighter in Hide, Fighter in Shiny Armor, Fighter in Green Hood. You get more "Adjudication License" than Class Features.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Well there are real levels to the rangeriness or paladinosity.
No doubt on the other hand looked at from space -> there is this multiclassing system and bringing in some cleric levels or druid ones in theory could be ways of controlling those metrics if the core elements were functional kind of like how many "Paladins" I have seen multi-classing with full caster already

It's like the Beastmaster ranger. There was not enough space to make the Beastmaster people wanted within the ranger. You definitely couldnt fit the Beastmaster or Green Knight in the fighter.
Beastmaster has definitely been a design issue (is anyone satisfied with ranger yet?) for a while I just realised that in spite of loving the Green Knight flavor I have barely looked at it...
Could you put ranger and paladin back in fighter? Sure. Would more than 25% of the fans like the outcome? Nah.
Limits on satisfaction for design outcome I can dig, Warlords and Swordmages my favorite 4e classes do not reflect so well in 5e. Yeh one can build some version of a Warlord and maybe more than one but the potential is so very high (better than 4e) the results are not satisfying either. I am probably just picky about my swordmage.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
What if they opened up design space to let subclass features replace class features? Give up your action surge for beast companion,
I am considering tandem fighting uses a bonus action.... yes I know that means if you are guiding your beast or squire to make an attack and avoiding them getting explicitly targeted, you won't be using that bonus action to make a two weapon attack. They might be able to give you advantage on one of your attacks as well of course.
 

ECMO3

Hero
Sure but so will most Bladesingers when they get that vorpal blade
A bladesinger only is proficient in one martial weapon, unless they multiclass, take a feat or multiclass and chances are that weapon is a Rapier. IF you make it a 2-handed blade it will be completely incompatible with a bladesinger.
 


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