So, what was the first product where D&D's soul was sold?

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tx7321 said:
OK, after reading the Warz thread, its clear there is a general agreement that at some point TSR and WOTC chose to favor marketing and commercialism over the "needs" of the players.

Exactly who are those who are in "general agreement" on this point? You and two other guys?

How does WotC sell lots of stuff that their customers don't "need"? Guns to their heads? Threat to release dire weasels in their houses?
 

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Storm Raven said:
Exactly who are those who are in "general agreement" on this point? You and two other guys?

How does WotC sell lots of stuff that their customers don't "need"? Guns to their heads? Threat to release dire weasels in their houses?

Never underestimate the fear of weasels..much less the dire variety.
 

Storm Raven said:
Exactly who are those who are in "general agreement" on this point? You and two other guys?

How does WotC sell lots of stuff that their customers don't "need"? Guns to their heads? Threat to release dire weasels in their houses?
Housecats.
 

tx7321 said:
....

Personally I think the first major "sell out" of D&Ds soul was with UA. This was the first time we saw money take center stage in a big way. Before this point one got the impression Gary Gygax was still in it for the "love" of the game. After this point, its as if the corporation takes over, Gary's heart just isn't in it anymore, and he's on the way out. Its clear greed and corporate profits become more important then the game itself.

Yep, UA was the first selling of D&Ds soul for a handful of silver. It was the rapids before the waterfall of what was a post-Gygax 2E world. Unfortunately 3E maintanes this corporate philosophy treating D&D as a commodity with "units sold" being the primary objective rather then functionality itself....

OK....I'll bite. Sure, I'll agree UA was a sell out, a desperate attempt to stem flagging sales and a hemmoraging bottom line. Maye the trouble was even sooner when they tried to cut Arneson out of the royalty stream from AD&D, a sure sign of greed or of not enough to go around.

To continue the soul analogy you used, the soul was lost but rose again in 3e. From everything I read, WOTC went out of their way to find out what people wanted to play and what functioned for the majority them, not what some game designer thought they should want or old fart such as myself. I'm sure that this was motivated by the desire for profit, but a good business gives people what they want, and to do so it needs to listen and not brush aside criticism or criticize the critics. (It also shows either a love of the game of faith in the game to lay out the capital to do these surveys with no gaurantee the eventual game will pay off).

In a market with competition, units sold is a good indication of what people want. In capitalism it's sometimes called the "invisible hand." It works really well, people vote with their money, the business makes money, it's win-win. I'll leave it to government and religion to to tell me that I may think I want x but that y is really better for me.

I think you got the fad backwards, from everything I've read here, it appears AD&D was the fad and sales plummeted as soon as the initial buzz wore off and robust competition entered the market. 3e on the otherhand appears to have entered a market where D&D was dead in the water and turned it into the biggest and fastest ship in the fleet of RPGs.

Whatever doubts I had about 3.x e are being quickly erased by these threads.
 

el-remmen said:
At first I thought you might be talking about Jay-Z (2003), since I doubted Prince's Black Album (1987) could be considered a "sell out" - but then I realized you meant Metalica's Black Album (1991).

I guess that is popular name for records, though technically, I believe Spinal Tap's "Smell the Glove" (1984) is the first Black Album.

Oh wait, I forgot about the Damned's Black Album from like '81.

What is this thread about again?

Did you say Black Album or Black Flag? Black Flag never sold out!

I myself prefer "old school" selling out, shall we talk Mr. Roboto? :)
 

Waldorf said:
One could argue that D&D 'sold out' with the release of OD&D.

Indeed!

In fact, Gygax has said that many things were added to the game when it became a product simply to make it more appealing to Tolkien fans.

I wonder... Could the game have ever grown to its current (not peak) popularity without having been a commercial product?
 

OK that was my take on the thread anyway.....jeeze! To me, anyway, there's a difference between early TSR and late, and $$$ and corporate motivation became its driving force. The addition of core books that changed the rules of the game, IMO was when the shark was jumped, and the "spirit" of the game took second seat to greed. I don't have the link, but I do remember reading something about Gygax admitting that UA was put out in an attempt to save TSR as it was cash strapped. BTW, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Greed...its what results in better products often. But, I think in D&Ds case, there was something lost...its spirit perhaps. But then I'm bias coming into the game in the late 70s as I did.

PS Diaglo, I new I could count on you to say that. ;)
 
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RFisher said:
Indeed!

In fact, Gygax has said that many things were added to the game when it became a product simply to make it more appealing to Tolkien fans.

I wonder... Could the game have ever grown to its current (not peak) popularity without having been a commercial product?
i don't think Gary quit his insurance job and asked for the money to start his venture without some idea that it would be profitable.

people were clamoring to make copies of copies of the handscrawled notes of people who had played with Dave and Gary.

diaglo "Xerox was almost the mother of RPGs" Ooi
 


There wasn't one.

"Selling out" of D&D has always ocurred at the corporate level, and that didn't start happening until Gary was swept aside by Brian and Kevin Blume and they began to wreck the company financially: buying a needlepoint business (now one of you collector types find me a TSR produced needlepoint kit, and then I'll be impressed!), hiring on over one hundred additional employees (most of whom just got paychecks), the fleet of 100+ cars that TSR acquired.

Oh, and then the legal shenanegans when Gary got back to Lake Geneva and stopped the Blumes from dumping the now-nearly-worthless TSR on "the Street", maneuvering Lorraine "I am above gamers" Williams into power, and attempting to put Gary in a legal position that would forbid him from using his own name publicly with TSR's consent first, despite the fact that he was already gone.

You decry UNEARTHED ARCANA from this era as being a "sellout" but do you know what? You're right, it did "sell out". It sold out of every hobby store it was shipped to. It was a runaway success and the fact that there still is a D&D hobby/game is the net result. What was Gary to do? Let D&D die? TSR was swimming in debt and they needed money, fast. The fact that Gary's name was on a rulebook and that it completely turned the company around months after publication should tell you something.

Am I crazy about the rules in UNEARTHED ARCANA? Nope, I sure am not. But I recognize what it was in the overall, now, with hindsight. Furthermore, as a Dungeon Master I'm free to use, abuse or ignore the rules in UNEARTHED ARCANA at my leisure. I hail the book for doing two things: keeping the doors at TSR open, and rubbing the Blume's face in the simple fact that as much as they were a couple of MBA holding greedy sons of bitches, they'd never be accepted by the people - us - who bought D&D stuff. Gary's name on products sold. Hell, compare sales of UNEARTHED ARCANA to later volumes (THE WILDERNESS SURVIVAL GUIDE, MANUAL OF THE PLANES, THE DUNGEONEER'S SURVIVAL GUIDE).

Heaps upon heaps of late 1e books moldering in TSR's warehouse (mostly those last volumes...), dumping money in to salvaging some lake-boat (which as it turns out was entirely decayed - wood rotted, metal rusted away), putting profit over people - that is when the sellout occured.

Ryan Dancey wrote an impassioned letter to D&D fans about how he was in charge of "saving" the game, if not TSR. Just like UNEARTHED ARCANA before it, the d20 system, the OGL and D&D based on d20 did just that.

Now that Hasbro calls the shots, the selling out continues forward: I don't think there was a need for the endless flood of MONSTER MANUAL books, splatbooks, class books - basically all the stuff that was done in late 2e that they told us they were getting rid of, never going back to, etc. That's another sellout.

But to try and pick one point in time and say "Well at this point D&D had no soul" is a bit disingenuous. D&D has a soul every time I spend a couple of hours late at night after the house has gone to bed, putting myself in the mind of god-creator and deciding what Erac's Cousin is going to do to try and stave off the adventurers for another week.

With all of that said, I find it equally disingenuous when some people claim that the current incarnation of the game just makes everything good - that bad players, a bad DM, and bad source material through some divine miracle of the current ruleset become great. Rules don't make D&D great, or lousy. The people do. There is no golden ruleset that makes D&D perfect. None. I love ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS. If I can't convince you to look at the DUNGEON MASTER'S GUIDE and not just sneer and say "that's a pile of broken, illogical, unworkable rules" or "what a horribly disorganized mess", then we don't have a lot to talk about. If I tell you I love ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS and your response is that I can't really have fun with it, that I'm only playing out of some bizarre sense of nostalgia, then I don't think we can really have a civil conversation about D&D.

But if you and I start talking, rules agnostic, about things GREYHAWK or that one time in B2 KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS when the thief backstabbed the owlbear and saved the party, or sneaking in to Nosnra's hideout, or painting up minis, or dice collections, or meeting Gary for the first time (with the caveat that you're not a hater), or your first GenCon (gotta go to that someday, if only to shake my cane at you young punks see what it's like)...then DUNGEONS & DRAGONS hasn't sold out, regardless of what some idiot in a suit in the Corporate Office says or does (and I don't think Gary Gygax, Peter Adkinson or Ryan Dancey were idiots in suits).
 

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