D&D 5E So Where my Witches at?

[steeldragons]

Is, perhaps, the confusion over an archetype or clarity of vision or implementation for a Witch class (in 5e or anywhere else) simply an issue of its lack of history in the rpg? "Officially," I mean.

Is it difficult for people to come to agreement of how to handle a witch (class or sub-class, sub-class of what, what features are iconic, etc...), as much as diversity of folklore/material to draw from as it is, if not solely due to, that a Witch just doesn't have that ephemeral "place" in D&D?

Like Psychic powers. Yes, psionics were in the 1e PHB...as an appendix. Bitd I never played in a game that used them. Editions went by, Pathfinder was created, the OSR began and grew...and, still, if you saw any use or handling of psychic abilities/"psionics" it was an optional "add on" or didn't become included until many many years and additional books for classes/feats/powers/magics/items/and on and on and on and then "OH! Look. There's a psychic[-type] class." Same case for the example of Samurai (or any non-European/western medieval archetype, really), brought up earlier.

I feel like the Witch has been in the same, cast away, trailing behind, "we'll get to you when we get to you, if ever" dingy behind the "Official/Core Game" galleon.

If you made a core game of classes that included "Witch" as a clear distinct alternative to "Wizard" or "Druid," would that be more agreeable to people than trying to shoehorn a new class or multiple subclasses across multiple existing classes into an existing game? Or is homebrewery so commonplace nowadays that it really doesn't matter?

Am I on to something here/making sense or just rambling?

 

[Guest 6801328]

Is, perhaps, the confusion over an archetype or clarity of vision or implementation for a Witch class (in 5e or anywhere else) simply an issue of its lack of history in the rpg? "Officially," I mean.

Is it difficult for people to come to agreement of how to handle a witch (class or sub-class, sub-class of what, what features are iconic, etc...), as much as diversity of folklore/material to draw from as it is, if not solely due to, that a Witch just doesn't have that ephemeral "place" in D&D?

Like Psychic powers. Yes, psionics were in the 1e PHB...as an appendix. Bitd I never played in a game that used them. Editions went by, Pathfinder was created, the OSR began and grew...and, still, if you saw any use or handling of psychic abilities/"psionics" it was an optional "add on" or didn't become included until many many years and additional books for classes/feats/powers/magics/items/and on and on and on and then "OH! Look. There's a psychic[-type] class." Same case for the example of Samurai (or any non-European/western medieval archetype, really), brought up earlier.

I feel like the Witch has been in the same, cast away, trailing behind, "we'll get to you when we get to you, if ever" dingy behind the "Official/Core Game" galleon.

If you made a core game of classes that included "Witch" as a clear distinct alternative to "Wizard" or "Druid," would that be more agreeable to people than trying to shoehorn a new class or multiple subclasses across multiple existing classes into an existing game? Or is homebrewery so commonplace nowadays that it really doesn't matter?

Am I on to something here/making sense or just rambling?

No, I think that's pretty accurate. The archetype is one of the most common, perhaps second only to "hero", and appears in myths and legends from across cultures, and while recent western versions have coalesced around some cliches (flying brooms, warty noses, cauldrons) really the only consistent theme, from across cultures and millennia, is that of the evil, manipulative woman who doesn't submit to the role of maternal sweetness and docility. The specifics of the dark powers they use to achieve their goals (which generally involves undermining the patriarchy) varies widely, though, and we are all going to have a different set of favorites.

I imagine we would be having a similar argument if we were starting from scratch and trying to define a "hero". Some of us would think the Hero class looks like Hercules or Gilgamesh, some would say Aladdin, some Robin Hood, some Odysseus, some Luke Skywalker, and some Samwise Gamgee.

We'd probably be hard-pressed to offer female archetypes that predated the latter half of the 20th century. Funny, that.

Edit: I know I probably sound like a culture warrior. I love the witch archetype, and as I said upthread I don't personally have a problem the word. Being a white American male and all. But I also think it's willful ignorance to pretend there isn't a long, messy history to the word, with implications for present day misogyny, and if finding a different word gets more people to enjoy the game, I'm willing to be flexible.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I don't worry about rules of politicaly correctness, and I dare to call witch a woman with a toxic personality.

I have said my version of witch as base class is like the warlock, but using the book of shadows to "summon vestige seals". This means witch class can't use the book of shadow as the wizard, but using seals, a mini-list of spells, like the vestige pact magic of Tome of Magic 3.5, but although once spell recovered with a short rest. Also with a sactum or special place for magic rituals to craft single-use magic item (potions, toxins, scrolls, runes, tatoos, talismans..).

Subclasses? Covens, one of them would be "good witchs" using white magic for buff-breaker effects against unholy creatures, a hybrid arcane-primal, or arcane-divine.

 

[Ashrym]

Or lore bard, then you can get the spells you want without multiclassing.

How I do it.

Whoah....nine players? That's a huge group.

But I've (also) contemplated a 5e compatible campaign world in which all the player characters are witches, of different flavors. Set in a traditional fairy-tale forest. I think it could be a blast. As a one-time thing, anyway.

Off topic, but I was in an 11 person group back in 2e. Biggest I've been in iirc.

 

[TwoSix]

I don't remember seeing anyone post this link in the thread so far, but once again we can look to our old friend Kibbletasty for covering this concept. They have created a class (Occultist) and subclass (Witch) that could possibly serve people's needs:

THE OCCULTIST

Mage Hand Press also has a good Witch class.

Complete Witch (PDF)

Not all rituals are performed in the daylight, and not all magic was meant to be known…The Complete Witch is the definitive version of our witch class, which has been comprehensively improved and expanded upon. We included a staggering 14 subclasses, running the gamut from White Magic and Black...

store.magehandpress.com

 

[Guest 6801328]

I don't worry about rules of politicaly correctness, and I dare to call witch a woman with a toxic personality.

Ooooh....as a man you "dare" to denigrate a woman because you don't like her personality. How positively courageous! You are a shining example for men everywhere.

 

[Lanefan]

To be perfectly frank, I don't believe the term "witch" is so toxic that it cannot exist in the space of the game, especially in a heroic (PC option) situation.

Well, two things here.

One, heroic and PC are not synonyms.

Two, if the class is open to PCs it's also open for the DM to throw at 'em as opponents, which is far more likely where-how they'd appear; and just feeds right back into the whole witch=evil stereotype that people are otherwise trying to overcome.

I don't think presenting a PC option based around the imagery of the classic Halloween witch would offend anyone who wasn't looking for the opportunity to be offended. There is some obvious areas D&D can become more inclusive, but I really doubt a PC witch option would cause any sort of backlash.

Unless I made such a class so bland as to be nearly unplayable, I'd get backlash from my own table!

Designing a Witch class would for me be nothing more than an exercise in walking on eggshells; as it would be for WotC only writ much larger.

 

[Lanefan]

I’d say, find familiar, polymorph, bless, bane, and a few divination spells, would be the basis for a list of spells you learn as part of the Wizard subclass. I’d give special features tied to find familiar and hex, as well.

I'll toss in here they should also be the best at potion-making; maybe even being able to brew basic potions as a baked-in class feature right from 1st level.

Also, if one's game has any sort of system for magic herbs, this class should shine here also.

Find Familiar would have no cost, and be usable without spending a slot 1/day, and your familiar would gain training in Arcana and the ability to speak common. ie, it could help you do magic stuff outside of combat. It might gain a thing at 6 where it can heal you if you drop to 0hp, disappearing in the process?

As someone who is thi-i-i-is close to getting rid of Find Familiar forever as they're such a bloody nuisance, please forgive my lack of support for this one.

For Hex, I’d allow the witch to cause the target to take the damage as a bonus action when you cause the target to make a save and they fail, and when an ally deals damage to it or when it fails an ability check 1/round.

I'd see a decent Hex spell being something that negatively affects all foes* within a certain fairly large area, but the effect on those creatures is minor - -1 to hit, maybe, or -1 to any and all damage dealt regardless of how it was caused.

Come to think of it, ideally this damage-reduction idea would also affect spells cast by affected creatures - which makes it something new; I can't think of any other effect that causes a blanket reduction on all damage whether from spell or weapon. Bane only affects melee, I think.

* - though my preference would be it gets everyone in the area, friend or foe, forcing the caster to be careful with targeting the area and discouraging it from just being dropped onto an existing melee.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

This is my idea of what a Witch/Occultist class is and how it is different from a Wizard or Warlock.

Witchcraft/Occultism is an old art, far older than Wizardry. It is the first arcane craft, and was much more difficult to master and more restrictive than Wizardry is, which is why Wizardry is much more common nowadays than Witchcraft/Occultism. It required strange items in order to channel their magic, was very hard to learn, and was more specialized than Wizardry is. While Wizards focus on all 8 schools of magic, using their years of studying arcane incantations and practicing magic in order to channel magic from the Weave of Magic, Witches/Occultists had to specialize in a very limited Path of Magic and channeled their magic from a very specific magical aspect of the world that they "hacked/tapped" into using their unearthly practices.

Though Warlocks make pacts and deals with otherworldly creatures and entities in order to get their eldritch powers, Witches/Occultists have to search and study the Weave of Magic, discovering how to siphon magic from a specific magical aspect of the world, such as stealing magic from the primal magic of nature or channeling the shadowy magic of dark parts of the multiverse in order to gain their specialized arcane magic.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Machism/Male chauvinism or mysogyny is when you despise all the women, not when you use a nasty word only against one woman with a bad behavior but you show respect for the rest of ladies and misses.

If my character was the famers' daughter with a low adquisitive level, and nor I could pay an expensive wizardry acadamey neither I wanted to be recruited as nun or cleric, I would need a right selection of spells to survive. I would use magic to sell potions and medicines, but also to hunt or gathering special herbs. I could use no-lethal magic to avoid combat, but not only nerfing spells when enemies are weaker but still can hurt you, for example a bear or a wolf pack in the forest.

And all future new classes not only have to be enough different to be only a new subcass, but also interesting bakcground to be used in fiction works without gameplay at all, for example a comic. A witch can't be only a low social class wizard or a cleric without armor.

I say for the witch/occultist as base class we could get ideas from the vestige binder (3.5 Tome of Magic) and the occultist classes medium and spiritualist from Pathfinder. Something about asking help a secret quasideity (maybe an acentor or former legendary hero), and summoning a familiar to be this the eyes and ears of this vestige spirit. This wouldn't be like the ordinary familiars, but more a monster companion, maybe with a different name, for example bjära or tilberi.