D&D 5E Song of Rest Abuse?

[Lanliss]

Yeah we have theory crafted all Rogue parties and all cleric parties as well. IDK why its just fun talking about D&D with the players.

I thought of running a blackops type rogue party, and a magical archeologist group built out of wizards. Clerics might be flexible, but I don't see running a full group of them, unless it is a crusade type game, where they are spreading their beliefs to far away countries.

 

[zaratan]

Naw. Human variant for the bonus feat on a lore bard grabs medium armor and shield if a person is worried anyway, just as an example.

Nah, please, my friend, you forced to much to try to prove your point. No one will want to get moderately armor with your human feat. Valor bard don't need this later and lore bards will invest in something better. With point buy you're a group of 5 guys starting with 14 AC and 10 HP, you can't argue that this is below avarage, don't even lose your time trying. This will be better later and can be an avarage defensive party (with cutting word abuse, a real good one), but you start below avarage.

And if you don't abuse dissonant whisppers with AoO, the starting DPR of full bard group will be below avarage too.

We roll 4d6 drop the lowest and you can multiclass the bards with the default array anyway. THose that roll well become valor bards, the weaker rolls can be lore bards as they are less MAD.

With multiclass and roll stats, this solve any problem.

 

[Ashrym]

Nah, please, my friend, you forced to much to try to prove your point. No one will want to get moderately armor with your human feat. Valor bard don't need this later and lore bards will invest in something better. With point buy you're a group of 5 guys starting with 14 AC and 10 HP, you can't argue that this is below avarage, don't even lose your time trying. This will be better later and can be an avarage defensive party (with cutting word abuse, a real good one), but you start below avarage.

And if you don't abuse dissonant whisppers with AoO, the starting DPR of full bard group will be below avarage too.

You are mistaken. Medium armor is a good choice for a lore bard who isn't planning on picking it up through multi-classing. It's more for the shield than the armor because the character either takes disadvantage on stealth or only gains one point of AC, and still has the same investment in DEX. Other medium armors cost more than the character's starting wealth and levels are gained quickly. A chain shirt capped at 15 AC (because of DEX bonus limit) vs studded leather and a +3 DEX bonus (no cap and easily achievable on point buy) is still 15 AC.

Stating those are low hp and AC didn't demonstrate what gives high hp or AC. There are only three d10 classes and one d12 class. Everyone else has the same hit points as the bard or less. 10 hp is not low; it's normal. It's what one would expect of every rogue, monk, or cleric out there. Half the classes use d8 because it's typical instead high or low. The difference in a few slightly higher hit points (12 hp instead of 10 hp) is very slim. There are only 2 classes with heavy armor proficiency and they might buy chain mail for AC 16. AC of 15, 14 on the lower side, isn't going to be different than AC of 14, 15, or 16 from other characters.

You haven't established a higher average some how.

There's no need to abuse dissonant whispers. The all bard party has a lot of sleep spells. Damage isn't bad because TWF short swords would be 2d6+DEX mod, which is being taken for AC anyway. That puts the bards in place of the wizard and cleric ahead on standard damage, and similar to other characters of that level. The groups is gaining ground on the low end even as they lose ground on the higher end. I think the group takes a hit on damage overall and works pretty well regardless because of the spell and skill versatility.

 

[zaratan]

You are mistaken. Medium armor is a good choice for a lore bard who isn't planning on picking it up through multi-classing. It's more for the shield than the armor because the character either takes disadvantage on stealth or only gains one point of AC, and still has the same investment in DEX. Other medium armors cost more than the character's starting wealth and levels are gained quickly. A chain shirt capped at 15 AC (because of DEX bonus limit) vs studded leather and a +3 DEX bonus (no cap and easily achievable on point buy) is still 15 AC.

Stating those are low hp and AC didn't demonstrate what gives high hp or AC. There are only three d10 classes and one d12 class. Everyone else has the same hit points as the bard or less. 10 hp is not low; it's normal. It's what one would expect of every rogue, monk, or cleric out there. Half the classes use d8 because it's typical instead high or low. The difference in a few slightly higher hit points (12 hp instead of 10 hp) is very slim. There are only 2 classes with heavy armor proficiency and they might buy chain mail for AC 16. AC of 15, 14 on the lower side, isn't going to be different than AC of 14, 15, or 16 from other characters.

You haven't established a higher average some how.

There's no need to abuse dissonant whispers. The all bard party has a lot of sleep spells. Damage isn't bad because TWF short swords would be 2d6+DEX mod, which is being taken for AC anyway. That puts the bards in place of the wizard and cleric ahead on standard damage, and similar to other characters of that level. The groups is gaining ground on the low end even as they lose ground on the higher end. I think the group takes a hit on damage overall and works pretty well regardless because of the spell and skill versatility.

Yes, moderately armor isn't a bad feat, but 95% (or more) of lore bard will not take that, so you can't stablish as standard.
You start with leather, not studded leather, maybe not every bard in your party will start with 16 of dex, and being Human V. to get Dex 16, Con 14, Cha 16 at start you need to have str 8, int 8, wis 10. So we can expect half-elf more than human.

only 4 class have more than a d8, but a standard group you have two of those, or 1 + a moon druid (that at lvl 2 is a pool of HP), or Clerics that can have heavy armor, or a monk that can start with 16 of AC, rogue's have cunning action at lvl 2 to avoid damage, warlocks are like bards and sorc and wiz are worse. Of 12 classes, you're worse than 8, equal 1 and better than 2, how this is average?

Sleep is great, but if you fight elfs, undead, constructs, CR2 monsters (or many CR1) or any creature that can't be charmed, is useless.
TWF you need to drop to cast S or M, you don't have a shield, you're HP isn't great and your AC is bad, all melee is not the party option. So 2d6 + dex isn't even close of average party damage, 1d6+dex is. Let's compare with barb, war cleric (or any with bless or martial weapons), moon druid (ok, suck at lvl 1, but is 1d8+wis with shillelagh), fighter, pali, monk, rogue, warlock or even ranger.


If avarage is 15 and you're 14,5, you're below average. I'm not saying this team suck, I'm just saying "below average at begining". Just make like a moon druid in lvl 1, survive to be great later.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes, moderately armor isn't a bad feat, but 95% (or more) of lore bard will not take that, so you can't stablish as standard.
You start with leather, not studded leather, maybe not every bard in your party will start with 16 of dex, and being Human V. to get Dex 16, Con 14, Cha 16 at start you need to have str 8, int 8, wis 10. So we can expect half-elf more than human.

only 4 class have more than a d8, but a standard group you have two of those, or 1 + a moon druid (that at lvl 2 is a pool of HP), or Clerics that can have heavy armor, or a monk that can start with 16 of AC, rogue's have cunning action at lvl 2 to avoid damage, warlocks are like bards and sorc and wiz are worse. Of 12 classes, you're worse than 8, equal 1 and better than 2, how this is average?

Sleep is great, but if you fight elfs, undead, constructs, CR2 monsters (or many CR1) or any creature that can't be charmed, is useless.
TWF you need to drop to cast S or M, you don't have a shield, you're HP isn't great and your AC is bad, all melee is not the party option. So 2d6 + dex isn't even close of average party damage, 1d6+dex is. Let's compare with barb, war cleric (or any with bless or martial weapons), moon druid (ok, suck at lvl 1, but is 1d8+wis with shillelagh), fighter, pali, monk, rogue, warlock or even ranger.


If avarage is 15 and you're 14,5, you're below average. I'm not saying this team suck, I'm just saying "below average at begining". Just make like a moon druid in lvl 1, survive to be great later.

Beats me why you are assuming the default array. We 4d6 ourselves if you roll really well people tend to take the MAD classes, if they roll not so good they take a class requiring 2 decent ability scores.

 

[zaratan]

Beats me why you are assuming the default array. We 4d6 ourselves if you roll really well people tend to take the MAD classes, if they roll not so good they take a class requiring 2 decent ability scores.

I'm not. I already told you: "With multiclass and roll stats, this solve any problem.".

Is just a pointless discussion about how full bard group have defense/ofense below average at starting levels. And to compare average, is easier with point buy.

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm not. I already told you: "With multiclass and roll stats, this solve any problem.".

Is just a pointless discussion about how full bard group have defense/ofense below average at starting levels. And to compare average, is easier with point buy.

Its not that bad though. THe all bard partycan literally sleep walk their way to level 3. Consider lost minds of Phandelver or even HotDQ and what would happen with access to 10 sleep spells.

 

[zaratan]

but if you consider OotA, you'll need to run in stealth only. And will be a hard time in CoS.

It really isn't that bad, is just below average.

 

[Zardnaar]

but if you consider OotA, you'll need to run in stealth only. And will be a hard time in CoS.

It really isn't that bad, is just below average.

At level 1 yes. I suspect it would catch up later thoguh due to the amount of advantage granting that could go on and the amount of bard dice that could be channeled towards valor bards using GWM and sharpshooter. I think our plan was 3 valor bards, 2 lore bards.

Valor Bard 1. GWM
Valor Bard 2. Shield Master, knocks stuff prone for himself and the GWM bard.
Valor Bard 3. Dex based with sharpshooter
Lore Bard 1. Built as blaster (magic initiate, steals hex and fireball at level 6).
Lore Bard 2. Built as healer. Takes prayer of healing and Aura of vitality with the healer feat.

Might suck a bit until level 3 but you have a lot of sleep spells to play with. Bard dice go to the GWM and SS bard every round as at level 5 you get 25 of them or whatever per short rest. This doesn't count faerie fire, greater invisibility etc. Under point buy maybe multiclass a couple of them. IDK if the party would actually work but it could be fun trying.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

It's more for the shield than the armor

I wouldn't use a shield on a Lore Bard because musical instruments are two-handed.