Sorceor spellselection
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ConcreteBuddha
First Post
Crack is being smoked here...
Taken from Faragdar the Wise's thread, "Sage Responses" on the wizards boards:
A sorcerer wants to spontaneously cast a metamagic version of a spell with a casting time of 1 action (say a maximized magic missile). Spontaneously casting a metamagic version of a 1 action spell requires a full-round action. Does this mean the spell takes effect:
A) Just before the caster's action next round? This means spontaneously casting a 1-action spell with a metamagic feat turns its casting time into "1 full round" as described in the Magic section of the PH.
B) Immediately? This means the only difference between casting a 1-action spell and spontaneously metamagic-ing a 1-action spell is that the metamagic one cannot have a move-equivalent action before or after. In other words, a spell with a casting time of "1 action" that requires a full-round action is different from a spell with a casting time of "1 full-round".
B (immediately). The character uses a full-round action and can't do anything else except take a 5-foot step. ---the Sage
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You are confusing a full round casting time with a full round action. All spells that are full round casting times require a full round action.
Spontaneous casting does not change the spell to a full round casting, it just makes it a full round action, i.e. spell + 5' step, and the spell goes off immediately.
Taken from Faragdar the Wise's thread, "Sage Responses" on the wizards boards:
A sorcerer wants to spontaneously cast a metamagic version of a spell with a casting time of 1 action (say a maximized magic missile). Spontaneously casting a metamagic version of a 1 action spell requires a full-round action. Does this mean the spell takes effect:
A) Just before the caster's action next round? This means spontaneously casting a 1-action spell with a metamagic feat turns its casting time into "1 full round" as described in the Magic section of the PH.
B) Immediately? This means the only difference between casting a 1-action spell and spontaneously metamagic-ing a 1-action spell is that the metamagic one cannot have a move-equivalent action before or after. In other words, a spell with a casting time of "1 action" that requires a full-round action is different from a spell with a casting time of "1 full-round".
B (immediately). The character uses a full-round action and can't do anything else except take a 5-foot step. ---the Sage
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.
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You are confusing a full round casting time with a full round action. All spells that are full round casting times require a full round action.
Spontaneous casting does not change the spell to a full round casting, it just makes it a full round action, i.e. spell + 5' step, and the spell goes off immediately.
Last edited:
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Sorceror spell selection really depends upon the level you create the sorceror. In my experience, it's much easier to create and play a 14th level sorceror than a 1st level one because you have enough levels to gain flexibility. At lower levels, you should not just think about what spells you'll want in the long run but also what spells are useful at the moment.
A few thoughts other thoughts:
1. Choose your feats carefully.
Metamagic is very powerful for a sorceror and allows you to have flexibility that is the sorceror's primary weakness. In my experience, the full round action casting (note that this is different from a full round casting time spell--rather than being like a Summon Monster which takes effect in the next round, it is like a full round attack which merely precludes movement) is no big deal.
-In my experience, empower spell is a no brainer. Double-empowered spells are better than energy admixed (energy admixture does the same damage on average but is potentially subject to two energy resistances) or maximized spells (although they're one level higher than a maximized spell)
-Extend Spell is also great. If you have any high level slots left before you start to rest, cast multiply extended buffs. My 14th level sorceror routinely cast a double extended energy buffer (potentially good for the next three days), and a 5x extended mage armor (good for almost a week). He could do this on other party members too.
-Spell Focus is good if you've got a lot of spells from one school. If you're cherry picking the best spells from all the schools and have only one or two spells with saves from each school, it won't be too useful. Go with Spellcasting Prodigy (FR) or Lace Spell: Holy Spell (Book of Eldritch Might) instead if your DM allows them.
-Spell penetration is a great feat if you're facing foes with SR.
-Arcane preparation can be useful for quicken spell but is most useful to qualify for the (broken for sorcerors) Mage of the Arcane Order prestige class.
-Energy Substitution can give great flexibility. Take energy substitution Sonic if you're looking to get around resistances. Energy Substitution: Cold and a lot of fire spells or vise versa will allow you to hit enemies weaknesses.
-Subdual Substitution can be a great feat too. Party members don't object quite as much to being caught in a subdual fireball. It also helps when you don't want to kill creatures (for instance, a magically influenced mob of peasants). Finally, the damage ceases to be elemental and consequently bypasses elemental resistances.
Enlarge Spell/Sculpt Spell (Tome and Blood). These are awesome feats if you choose spells that they can apply to. A second level sculpted or enlarged burning hands can give up to 5d4 damage in an area comparable to fireball. The additional 10' cube option of sculpt spell gives even more targetting flexibility with area effect spells--the feat can make lightning bolt into fireball, firebrand, or cone of cold (in area).
On spells: others have said a lot of what's relevant however I'll add my 2 cents on a couple of points:
Glitterdust/See Invisibility: Glitterdust requires you to make a listen roll or otherwise guess where the foe is. See Invisibility doesn't. On the other hand, Glitterdust is also one of the best 2nd level attack spells: an area effect blindness with a will save. It'll take out a lot of fighters. At higher levels the low save DC and availability of other area effect spells will eclipse its usefulness but IMO it's one of the best choices for a sorceror's first second level spell.
Fly: In my experience, fly is a spell that a high level wizard or sorceror should always have active when exploring a dungeon. It's also a spell that you can cast on your friends for greater tactical options. A flying fighter with a reach weapon is pretty much immune to melee opponents without reach. (And against missile opponents, he can sunder their weapons and against spelllcasters, he can fly over their guards to eliminate them). A flying wizard is much less vulnerable as well. (As a side effect, it makes you immune to pit traps and falling and can consequently substitute for feather fall).
On the fireball/lightning bolt dilemma: also consider Icy Burst (Tome and Blood). It's like fireball but with more reliable damage (slightly lower maximum but higher minimum) (and it's a less likely target for opponents to choose spell immunity for). It also gives 1pt. of damage per level that's not subject to elemental resistances or immunities--quite useful if you forgoe the elemental substitution or choose fire/cold so as to get double damage by exploiting creatures' vulnerabilities).
A few thoughts other thoughts:
1. Choose your feats carefully.
Metamagic is very powerful for a sorceror and allows you to have flexibility that is the sorceror's primary weakness. In my experience, the full round action casting (note that this is different from a full round casting time spell--rather than being like a Summon Monster which takes effect in the next round, it is like a full round attack which merely precludes movement) is no big deal.
-In my experience, empower spell is a no brainer. Double-empowered spells are better than energy admixed (energy admixture does the same damage on average but is potentially subject to two energy resistances) or maximized spells (although they're one level higher than a maximized spell)
-Extend Spell is also great. If you have any high level slots left before you start to rest, cast multiply extended buffs. My 14th level sorceror routinely cast a double extended energy buffer (potentially good for the next three days), and a 5x extended mage armor (good for almost a week). He could do this on other party members too.
-Spell Focus is good if you've got a lot of spells from one school. If you're cherry picking the best spells from all the schools and have only one or two spells with saves from each school, it won't be too useful. Go with Spellcasting Prodigy (FR) or Lace Spell: Holy Spell (Book of Eldritch Might) instead if your DM allows them.
-Spell penetration is a great feat if you're facing foes with SR.
-Arcane preparation can be useful for quicken spell but is most useful to qualify for the (broken for sorcerors) Mage of the Arcane Order prestige class.
-Energy Substitution can give great flexibility. Take energy substitution Sonic if you're looking to get around resistances. Energy Substitution: Cold and a lot of fire spells or vise versa will allow you to hit enemies weaknesses.
-Subdual Substitution can be a great feat too. Party members don't object quite as much to being caught in a subdual fireball. It also helps when you don't want to kill creatures (for instance, a magically influenced mob of peasants). Finally, the damage ceases to be elemental and consequently bypasses elemental resistances.
Enlarge Spell/Sculpt Spell (Tome and Blood). These are awesome feats if you choose spells that they can apply to. A second level sculpted or enlarged burning hands can give up to 5d4 damage in an area comparable to fireball. The additional 10' cube option of sculpt spell gives even more targetting flexibility with area effect spells--the feat can make lightning bolt into fireball, firebrand, or cone of cold (in area).
On spells: others have said a lot of what's relevant however I'll add my 2 cents on a couple of points:
Glitterdust/See Invisibility: Glitterdust requires you to make a listen roll or otherwise guess where the foe is. See Invisibility doesn't. On the other hand, Glitterdust is also one of the best 2nd level attack spells: an area effect blindness with a will save. It'll take out a lot of fighters. At higher levels the low save DC and availability of other area effect spells will eclipse its usefulness but IMO it's one of the best choices for a sorceror's first second level spell.
Fly: In my experience, fly is a spell that a high level wizard or sorceror should always have active when exploring a dungeon. It's also a spell that you can cast on your friends for greater tactical options. A flying fighter with a reach weapon is pretty much immune to melee opponents without reach. (And against missile opponents, he can sunder their weapons and against spelllcasters, he can fly over their guards to eliminate them). A flying wizard is much less vulnerable as well. (As a side effect, it makes you immune to pit traps and falling and can consequently substitute for feather fall).
On the fireball/lightning bolt dilemma: also consider Icy Burst (Tome and Blood). It's like fireball but with more reliable damage (slightly lower maximum but higher minimum) (and it's a less likely target for opponents to choose spell immunity for). It also gives 1pt. of damage per level that's not subject to elemental resistances or immunities--quite useful if you forgoe the elemental substitution or choose fire/cold so as to get double damage by exploiting creatures' vulnerabilities).
In my opinion, it's not. Shield cast by a 20th level caster is about as useful as one cast by a 1st level one (lasts 1 combat), thus shield is better cast by wand or scroll.Thanee said:
Glitterdust is an area effect. I need to know about where they are to affect them, not exactly where they are. But yes, there are cases where See Invisibility is better. I think that Glitterdust is more useful more of the time.
Dimension Door is redundant with Teleport.
Confusion is a nice area-effect Will attack, which I was lacking. Lighting Bolt covers Reflex saves.
Let the Bard or Cleric take care of that.
A subdual fireball won't kill a party member by itself, but it will knock them out, which is often as good as being dead. I like the peasant angle, though.Elder-Basilisk said:
I don't see how "subdual fire" differs from "fire" for the purpose of elemental resistance.
That's the real weakness of Glitterdust: you don't want to use it when said invisible foe is in melee with the rest of your party lest it blind your party. You could Sculpt Glitterdust, which fixes that weakness. I was primarily thinking of Glitterdust as a substitute for the lack of Mass See Invisibility, with a bonus blindness effect, rather than a primary offensive spell.
Another little input on the Glitterdust/See Invisibility argument:
Glitterdust REVEALS the invisible creatures, whereas See Invisibility merely enables you to see them.
If you think that there is no difference, think again.
If an invisible foe is Glitterdusted, the whole party can see them and react and fight appropriately.
If you can See Invisibility, then only you can see them. Yes, you can operate at full effectiveness, but your fellow party members are still going to be in trouble (especially if there are Improved Invisible rogues skulking around).
Thus, Glitterdust is the better option. Note also that it is a great attack spell: blindness for 1round/level over a 10' radius is no laughing matter. Compare with Blindness/Deafness, the spell, which, while Permanent is commensurately weaker. Not only does it only affect one character, but it doesn't reveal invisible creatures. Permanent is rarely that useful: most combats are over in a matter of rounds, not years.
Regarding finding them in the first place: not that difficult really. Listen, Spot or just a lucky guess is good enough: and since it's affecting a 10' radius you can always have a fair chance of hitting.
Icy Burst is actually a very good choice: one I originally overlooked. 1 point of blunt damage is not subject to elemental damage, making it extremely useful, and most foes will choose Protection from Fire over Protection from Ice.
Reduce? Really? Personally, by the time I get Teleport I just shove fellow characters in a Bag of Holding, teleport and take them out again. I feel it slightly superfluous.
Confusion: Exceptionally powerful. Best 4th level spell IMO (possible exception: Polymorph Other). With regard to hitting fellow party members, just be careful. Do you really need it? YES.
Dispel Magic and Dimension Door tend to quite good, although one wonders if you should wait until Teleport for the latter.
Now for my take on bitbug's expansive list:
Identify: Unnecessary. You don't really want this as a sorceror, taking up a slot for something relatively rarely used. Better to just loads up on scrolls (only 25gp a shot).
Detect Secret Doors: Unnecessary unless no rogue in the party.
Reduce: Superfluous. Reducing weapon size is no big deal: taking a Huge weapon down to a medium weapon reduces average damage from 2d8 to d8. Average damage is 4.5 pts less. Really worth a spell? Compare with Ray of Enfeeblement, which also takes down to hit and can mean heavily armoured characters collapse under the weight of their own equipment. Or Charm Person just stops them attacking altogether.
Blindness: Unnecessary with Glitterdust: see above.
Hold Monster: Interesting, but depends on campaign. Against mostly humanoid opponents, Dominate Person may be the better choice. And I disagree with you about Confusion (see above).
Most of your higher-level choices I think are very solid.
Consider also:
Horrid Wilting (no direct damage spell since 3rd levl I note)
Otto's Irresistable Dance
Maze
TIME STOP
Imprisonment
Glitterdust REVEALS the invisible creatures, whereas See Invisibility merely enables you to see them.
If you think that there is no difference, think again.
If an invisible foe is Glitterdusted, the whole party can see them and react and fight appropriately.
If you can See Invisibility, then only you can see them. Yes, you can operate at full effectiveness, but your fellow party members are still going to be in trouble (especially if there are Improved Invisible rogues skulking around).
Thus, Glitterdust is the better option. Note also that it is a great attack spell: blindness for 1round/level over a 10' radius is no laughing matter. Compare with Blindness/Deafness, the spell, which, while Permanent is commensurately weaker. Not only does it only affect one character, but it doesn't reveal invisible creatures. Permanent is rarely that useful: most combats are over in a matter of rounds, not years.
Regarding finding them in the first place: not that difficult really. Listen, Spot or just a lucky guess is good enough: and since it's affecting a 10' radius you can always have a fair chance of hitting.
Icy Burst is actually a very good choice: one I originally overlooked. 1 point of blunt damage is not subject to elemental damage, making it extremely useful, and most foes will choose Protection from Fire over Protection from Ice.
Reduce? Really? Personally, by the time I get Teleport I just shove fellow characters in a Bag of Holding, teleport and take them out again. I feel it slightly superfluous.
Confusion: Exceptionally powerful. Best 4th level spell IMO (possible exception: Polymorph Other). With regard to hitting fellow party members, just be careful. Do you really need it? YES.
Dispel Magic and Dimension Door tend to quite good, although one wonders if you should wait until Teleport for the latter.
Now for my take on bitbug's expansive list:
Identify: Unnecessary. You don't really want this as a sorceror, taking up a slot for something relatively rarely used. Better to just loads up on scrolls (only 25gp a shot).
Detect Secret Doors: Unnecessary unless no rogue in the party.
Reduce: Superfluous. Reducing weapon size is no big deal: taking a Huge weapon down to a medium weapon reduces average damage from 2d8 to d8. Average damage is 4.5 pts less. Really worth a spell? Compare with Ray of Enfeeblement, which also takes down to hit and can mean heavily armoured characters collapse under the weight of their own equipment. Or Charm Person just stops them attacking altogether.
Blindness: Unnecessary with Glitterdust: see above.
Hold Monster: Interesting, but depends on campaign. Against mostly humanoid opponents, Dominate Person may be the better choice. And I disagree with you about Confusion (see above).
Most of your higher-level choices I think are very solid.
Consider also:
Horrid Wilting (no direct damage spell since 3rd levl I note)
Otto's Irresistable Dance
Maze
TIME STOP
Imprisonment
Thanee
First Post
Glitterdust is better once you have detected an invisible opponent, since it helps the whole party (altho it's pretty much redundant when the fighters have blind fighting, since they only need to pinpoint them, easily possible if the sorcerer can see them and show them (they can simply delay initiative to act immediately after the sorcerer)). See Invisibility helps you not being surprised by one or find one in the first place. The latter is far more important IMHO. If you ever get killed by an invisible ambusher, you'll know what I mean! But if you like Glitterdust better, go for it! Don't want to talk you out of it.
Dimension Door is available a lot earlier than Teleport w/o Error and saves the high level slots. Not really redundant, unless you become an extremely high level, and extremely helpful in the mid levels.
Confusion and Will save, if you got Glitterdust, that's a area effect Will save already. At least I think it's Will.
Hold Monster has one extreme advantage over Dominate Person, that is the target restriction (monster compared to person)!
Bye
Thanee
Dimension Door is available a lot earlier than Teleport w/o Error and saves the high level slots. Not really redundant, unless you become an extremely high level, and extremely helpful in the mid levels.
Confusion and Will save, if you got Glitterdust, that's a area effect Will save already. At least I think it's Will.
Hold Monster has one extreme advantage over Dominate Person, that is the target restriction (monster compared to person)!
Bye
Thanee
Thanee
First Post
Forgot one thing.
Shield. If you have free access to magic items, then you can buy Wands of Shield, of course. Same holds true for Mage Armor, tho, which also does not stack with Bracers of Armor. A Wand of Mage Armor should be better for the few times you really want to protect your whole party against incorporeals, while Shield will be used so often, it's probably better put in your own spell slots.
Bye
Thanee
Shield. If you have free access to magic items, then you can buy Wands of Shield, of course. Same holds true for Mage Armor, tho, which also does not stack with Bracers of Armor. A Wand of Mage Armor should be better for the few times you really want to protect your whole party against incorporeals, while Shield will be used so often, it's probably better put in your own spell slots.
Bye
Thanee
Al said:
Really? You can fit your party members into a Bag of Holding? Must travel with a lot of halflings and gnomes....
Plus, Reduce can be used to manipulate objects outside of combat. Boulder to big to move easily? Reduce it. Same for that tapestry. Statue? No problem. Can't quite fit in that opening? Just change your size.
I don't think one should bypass DD for teleport. They are both useful. DD is far superior to Teleport for accurate short range movement. Teleport, after all, has a chance of failure. Plus, you can cast more DD than you can Teleport.
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