D&D 5E Sorcerer Changes

[Chaosmancer]

I do not think this word means what you think it means.

Great.

Tell me how you use sorcerery points to cast metamagic and that does not limit the number of spell slots they can use sorcerery points to create? Without eating their other spell slots?

If you can deny it, then deny it.

Not sure I follow your reasoning here. If a sorcerer novas with all his sorcery points too soon and regrets it, he can make more sorcery points.

How is this worse than a Wizard?

So, he novas all his points, and has to remove his spells per day to get more of them.

A wizard uses his class abilities (this does not cut into their spells), a wizard uses their arcane recvery (this does not cut into their class abilities)

Yes, a wizard can't use the sorcerers unique mechanic, and they can't make a spell slot right now but over the course of a full day, they have more spells. Especially if the sorcerer tries to act like a sorcerer.

But it's all the same. A wizard cuts off access to 2nd-level spells because they casted them too often. That doesn't make 2nd level spells bad.

It is not the same. It cannot be.

Unless you can explain to me how casting a second level spell makes the wizard lose three first level spells. Or how casting a second level spell uses up a diviner's portent ability. Then it would be the same.

Is your argument that metamagics should be at-will? It's not like sorcerers don't have quite alot of spellslots. Or are you just saying that sorcerers are bad because they aren't wizards. It's called opportunity cost because everyone can't have everything cool at-will as if they're a martial.

Am not saying portent is a bad ability am I? Am I claiming Battlemaster maneuvers are bad? No.

Because those abilities cost are limited within their abilities. If you use portent, then portent is used up. That makes sense.

If you use metamagic, then you use up metamagic, and you can't create as many spells, and you might even have to eat your other spells.

Metamagic never feels like enough for all the restrictions placed on sorcerers. It shouldn't be at-will, that is clearly too powerful. But that also doesn't mean that things are good as they are.

But sorcerer players aren't dumb. They can see their resources. A player's IQ doesn't go down for choosing sorcerer. If they don't need to go that hard, then they won't. Even at low level, a sorcerer should know better than to quicken poison spray or something. The option is there if you need the damage.

Why do you think I am claiming they are stupid? Or that they have lost IQ? Do you think only stupid people misjudge their resources? Have players never reacted to an enemy trick and misused resources

Maybe they Twinned a polymorph and then next round the wizard player pulled out a wand of fireballs they had and nuked the encounter, so the twin polymorph wasn't needed.

They are separate pools but it's the same conversion rate. It's basically the same. 3 sorcery points is not 2 spell points, it's 3 spell points because it simulates the cost of a 2nd level spell. 7 sorcery points converts to 7 spell points.

Ah right, I had forgotten that they used the same chart. My mistake.

3+(4*1)+(2*2)=11 sorcery points. Read my list again, I made no mention of quicken on purpose. Assuming all cantrips, you can use metamagic 11 times before a long rest. The thing about it is that you don't need to commit. Nothing is forcing you to actually cast 11 metamagics. Or using your sorcery points to convert. It's an option. An opportunity cost. Just don't blow all your sorcery points/spell slots on useless crap.

Ah, you only listed the metamagics that cost 1 point. Ignoring Quicken then, one of the best metamagics generally.

But, even you seem to mention it would be useless crap, so, you have the ability to do something that isn't worth doing. It is an option that no one would even use. It would be like saying the wizard has the option to burn their spellbook. Sure, they have that option. No one wants to do that, because it doesn't help them, so why is it an option we care to talk about?

It's called balance and decision making. You keep saying it "shuts down the most important ability." But that's up for debate, right? Why is metamagic more important than casting 4 2nd-level spells? It depends. You can't predict all situations and neither can a sorcerer player, but guess what? They can adapt. That's what they have. Adaptability. We can whiteboard calculate all day about the minimums and maximums but they aren't committed to either.

What is the defining feature of the Sorcerer? What is the one ability they have that no other class has?

Is it the ability to cast more spells. Or is it metamagic, the feature that an entire new system was created just for them to use, that takes up the majority of their design space and restricted their spells known?

Sure they can adapt, but metamagic is their defining feature. It is like the rogue's sneak attack, the paladin's smite, or the bard's inspiration.

That's not even a comparison. A wizard casting an extra spell actually does lose potential from Arcane Recovery for a long rest because in order for them to have an extra spell, they'd have to use Arcane Recovery which is also a long rest resource. But sorcerers can use their "arcane recovery" to twin haste or make more spells than arcane recovery can.

At 7th level, a wizard can make one 3rd level spell. At 7th level, a sorcerer can make one 5th level spell which is actually a larger spellslot than spell levels they have. They can still upcast, though.

but, and hold onto something, the sorcerer can do more than just replenish his spell slots, if he so chooses, he can actually use them for metamagic instead. And that gives him versatility and power.

So, a wizard has to use their ability before they can benefit from it.

The sorcerer using their ability can cut off access to their other ability.

Because, and hold onto something, if they replenish their spells, they might not have the points to use metamagic. And if they use metamagic, they might not have the points to replenish their spells.

Trying to do both, just makes both less effective

 

[Asisreo]

Great.

Tell me how you use sorcerery points to cast metamagic and that does not limit the number of spell slots they can use sorcerery points to create? Without eating their other spell slots?

If you can deny it, then deny it.

You know that generally, you want to use up all your long rest resources before a long rest, right? If you don't use up all your resources, they get used up without having done anything effective. A 1st level spell that wasn't cast because they casted a cantrip is a waste of a 1st-level spell.

So, he novas all his points, and has to remove his spells per day to get more of them.

A wizard uses his class abilities (this does not cut into their spells), a wizard uses their arcane recvery (this does not cut into their class abilities)

Yes, a wizard can't use the sorcerers unique mechanic, and they can't make a spell slot right now but over the course of a full day, they have more spells. Especially if the sorcerer tries to act like a sorcerer.

Over the course of a day, they do not*have more spells. It is once per long rest, activated on a short rest. At 3rd level, a wizard can make 1 2nd-level slot. A sorcerer does the same. At 4th, a wizard has the same amount, so does a sorcerer. At 5th level, a wizard gets a 3rd level spell, so does a sorcerer. At 6th level, a wizard gets a 3rd level spell, a sorcerer gets a *4th level spellslot. **At 7th level, a wizard gets a 4th level spell slot, a sorcerer can have a 5th. At 8th level, a wizard gets a 4th level spellslot. A sorcerer gets a 5th. At 9th level, a wizard gets a 5th level spellslot, a sorcerer gets a 5th-level spell and a 1st-level spell. and it continues to go in favor of the sorcerer even up to level 20.

It is not the same. It cannot be.

Unless you can explain to me how casting a second level spell makes the wizard lose three first level spells. Or how casting a second level spell uses up a diviner's portent ability. Then it would be the same.

Casting the same number of 2nd level spells as a sorcerer gets rid of any 1st-level spells, besides the extra ones you get.

Am not saying portent is a bad ability am I? Am I claiming Battlemaster maneuvers are bad? No.

Because those abilities cost are limited within their abilities. If you use portent, then portent is used up. That makes sense.

If you use metamagic, then you use up metamagic, and you can't create as many spells, and you might even have to eat your other spells.

Metamagic never feels like enough for all the restrictions placed on sorcerers. It shouldn't be at-will, that is clearly too powerful. But that also doesn't mean that things are good as they are.

You can mend your metamagic however you choose. This isn't something you can whiteroom analyze. It all depends on the adventure, the encounters, the monsters, your party. You literally cannot place a value on metamagic, it is both unique and based on the situation. Whether or not a 2nd level spell is worth twinning dominate monster is completely up to you (it certainly would be to me) and the situation. I would not need metamagic in an encounter with 2 goblins. I would need an extra 2nd level spell to cast levitate because that it a unique need. If that was an encounter, using up metamagic was more worthy than not.

Why do you think I am claiming they are stupid? Or that they have lost IQ? Do you think only stupid people misjudge their resources? Have players never reacted to an enemy trick and misused resources

Maybe they Twinned a polymorph and then next round the wizard player pulled out a wand of fireballs they had and nuked the encounter, so the twin polymorph wasn't needed.

To be frank, miscommunication is pretty stupid. The wizard only needed to say "I'll use my wand of fireballs to take this out!" Beyond that, if a wizard say it appropriate to use a wand of fireballs and that ended up ending the encounter, either they used a very expensive resource of their own or the sorcerer could've just fireballed.

The thing is, though, that the sorcerer can still use metamagic and still cast 4th level spells even if he misjudged the situation. It is not as tight of a decision as you're making it out to be.

Ah, you only listed the metamagics that cost 1 point. Ignoring Quicken then, one of the best metamagics generally.

But, even you seem to mention it would be useless crap, so, you have the ability to do something that isn't worth doing. It is an option that no one would even use. It would be like saying the wizard has the option to burn their spellbook. Sure, they have that option. No one wants to do that, because it doesn't help them, so why is it an option we care to talk about?

Hot take: quicken isn't that great. For the price of 3 quickened fireballs, you could've casted a 4th.

What is the defining feature of the Sorcerer? What is the one ability they have that no other class has?

Font of magic.

Is it the ability to cast more spells.

Yes.

Or is it metamagic, the feature that an entire new system was created just for them to use, that takes up the majority of their design space and restricted their spells known?

Yes. The third unique thing is converting low level spell slots to high level spell slots.

Sure they can adapt, but metamagic is their defining feature. It is like the rogue's sneak attack, the paladin's smite, or the bard's inspiration.

You should compare 3rd level features with 3rd level features and 2nd level features with 2nd level features. Font of Magic compares to rogue's sneak attacks and paladin's smites.

Metamagic compares differently. Sorcerers get to choose their subclass at level 1, so let's compare what features classes of a similar structure get at level 3:

Clerics get...hm...well, uh, 2nd level spells.

Wizards get...hm...well, uh, 2nd level spells again.

Ah, warlocks get their pact boons. Just like Metamagic, Pact Boons are unique to warlocks, yet they're not "their defining class feature." Defining class features are not at level 3, they're at level 2.
It's a sorcerer's Font of Magic. Yes, font of magic is incredibly powerful and should be given its dues. A sorcerer can do quite well without having used metamagic at all if they have good knowledge of how to use Font of Magic to manipulate their spell slots in a way that no other spellcaster can.

So, a wizard has to use their ability before they can benefit from it.

The sorcerer using their ability can cut off access to their other ability.

Would it help you if you recognized that Font of Magic and Metamagic can be thought as one-and-the-same feature. Imagine they gave the feature all at once. It's a pooled resource you can use however you wish. There isn't any "losing a different option." It's the same "options" with different effects. It's literally the same as the opportunity cost of using one metamagic over the other, because it's a pooled resource.

You don't hear quicken being bad because it uses up 2 distant spell resources. Because yeah, that's how a resource pool works.

Because, and hold onto something, if they replenish their spells, they might not have the points to use metamagic. And if they use metamagic, they might not have the points to replenish their spells.

Trying to do both, just makes both less effective

Oh! The horror! Could you imagine playing a spellcasting class that doesn't have metamagic! Imagine playing as a wizard, but you didn't have metamagic! All you could do was recover spell slots! The sheer pain...poor guy...

 

[Guest 6801328]

So, he novas all his points, and has to remove his spells per day to get more of them.

A wizard uses his class abilities (this does not cut into their spells), a wizard uses their arcane recvery (this does not cut into their class abilities)

Yes, a wizard can't use the sorcerers unique mechanic, and they can't make a spell slot right now but over the course of a full day, they have more spells. Especially if the sorcerer tries to act like a sorcerer.

Yeah, um....no.

Purely in terms of spell slot recovery, Font of Magic is better in two ways than Arcane Recovery (bonus action instead of short rest, and more slots recovered). The only thing Arcane Recovery has going for it is that you can restore 6th level slots, and Font caps out at 5th nothing. (fixed)

Plus (or alternatively) you can use it for extremely powerful metamagic.

Imagine if Arcane Recovery came with one more sentence, "Alternately, you can spend Arcane Recovery as a bonus action and (insert stupid amounts of damage.)". Wouldn't that be...freakin' awesome? (Although it still wouldn't be as good as Font of Magic + Metamagic. Closer, though.)

Look, I agree with you that the Sorcerer needs more flavor to distinguish it thematically from Wizard. Which you could also solve by changing how the Wizard works: all that's needed is more daylight between them. (However, the Wizard is more established in D&D, so it makes more sense to mess with the Sorcerer.)

But power ain't the problem. The Sorcerer has plenty.

 

[Asisreo]

Purely in terms of spell slot recovery, Font of Magic is better in two ways than Arcane Recovery (bonus action instead of short rest, and more slots recovered). The only thing Arcane Recovery has going for it is that you can restore 6th level slots, and Font caps out at 5th.

Nope, Arcane Recovery cannot make 6th level or higher spell slots. It's also capped at 5th level.

 

[Redwizard007]

Great.

Tell me how you use sorcerery points to cast metamagic and that does not limit the number of spell slots they can use sorcerery points to create? Without eating their other spell slots?

If you can deny it, then deny it.

I'll do you one better. I'll point out that no one cares. Well, almost no one. You obviously care a great deal. That's fine. You have other options. For those of us who enjoy resource management, and more accurately mismanagement, the sorcerer is awesome! It's one of the few character options available in 5e where YOU AS A PLAYER can make meaningful decisions about how challenging a series of encounters will be. If you want to horde all your goodies for the BBEG like console players horde mana pots it is a completely viable choice. If you want to rattle off a ton of 1st level spells its a viable choice. If you want to nuke that lone goblin sentry into the anals of history and pop cantrips for the rest of the day it is also an option. Is it optimized? Why even ask?

 

[Guest 6801328]

Nope, Arcane Recovery cannot make 6th level or higher spell slots. It's also capped at 5th level.

Ah, right. I looked it up quickly and saw ...and none of the slots can be 6th level or higher without reading carefully. Reading comprehension FTL.

Ok, so there's nothing superior about Arcane Recovery. At all.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Tell me how you use sorcerery points to cast metamagic and that does not limit the number of spell slots they can use sorcerery points to create? Without eating their other spell slots?

To me this sounds a little bit like arguing that subclass abilities that consume Channel Divinity are bad because you have to choose between them and the base class use for it.

But I think I get what @Chaosmancer is saying:

Because Font of Magic is kinda sorta equivalent to Arcane Recovery, we can say that the two classes get about the same number of slots per day. So let's call the two classes equal (so far).

However, Wizards get to know a lot more spells. Not only do they get Int modifier more spells known on any given day, they can also swap them out after any long rest, choosing from any in their spell book. Score one point for Wizards.

Sorcerers, on the other hand, get to juice up their spells with metamagic. Score one for the Sorcerer.

"Hold on!" says chaosmancer, "Metamagic is powered through Sorcery Points, and we already spent those on spell slot recovery. In weighing the Sorcerer against the Wizard we can include either Font of Magic or Metamagic, but not both!"

If that's the argument, I think it does make sense logically. But I disagree that it makes the Sorcerer strictly inferior. If the Sorcerer had both the recovery and the metamagic, it would be too much.

EDIT: I've been thinking about Sorcerers a lot over the last couple of weeks, and my favorite solution is (still)....drumroll...my own:

• Expanded spell list by subclass, with one spell at each spell level from 1 to 5
• Bonus spells can be cast for as many sorcery points as their level.*
• OR if you cast bonus spells using spell slots, you get one free sorcery point to spend on that spell

If that sounds a little whimpy, consider that if a 5th level sorcerer cast ONLY bonus spells with all their slots they would have gotten 7 free sorcery points, compared to the 5 sorcery points they get by default. So the more you stick to your theme, the greater the rewards.

The tricky part, I'll acknowledge, is that the incentive to cast bonus spells is so great that the bonus spell list could really make or break the subclass.

*I really like the thing in Shadow Sorcerer where if you cast it with a slot you can see through it, and at first I wanted to come up with something like that for every single bonus spell for every single subclass. But that started to feel too complex/fiddly for 5e, and I think what I've got there is already powerful enough.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You know that generally, you want to use up all your long rest resources before a long rest, right? If you don't use up all your resources, they get used up without having done anything effective. A 1st level spell that wasn't cast because they casted a cantrip is a waste of a 1st-level spell.

This is not a refutation of the point I was making. This is an aside.

Over the course of a day, they do not*have more spells. It is once per long rest, activated on a short rest. At 3rd level, a wizard can make 1 2nd-level slot. A sorcerer does the same. At 4th, a wizard has the same amount, so does a sorcerer. At 5th level, a wizard gets a 3rd level spell, so does a sorcerer. At 6th level, a wizard gets a 3rd level spell, a sorcerer gets a *4th level spellslot. **At 7th level, a wizard gets a 4th level spell slot, a sorcerer can have a 5th. At 8th level, a wizard gets a 4th level spellslot. A sorcerer gets a 5th. At 9th level, a wizard gets a 5th level spellslot, a sorcerer gets a 5th-level spell and a 1st-level spell. and it continues to go in favor of the sorcerer even up to level 20.

Yeah, completely ignoring the point. Let's show it this way.

3rd level
Wizard - Arcane recovery: a second level spell. Rituals cast (X)
Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a second level spell. No points left to use any metamagic abilities for the day

If sorcerer uses a Single Quicken - No spells gained

4th level
Wizard - Arcane recovery: a second level spell. Rituals cast (X)
Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a second level spell. A single point left to use any metamagic abilities for the day

If a sorcerer uses a single Quicken - Sorcerer gains a 1st level slot instead


5th level
Wizard - Arcane recovery: a third level spell. Rituals cast (X)
Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a third level spell. No points left to use any metamagic abilities for the day

If sorcerer uses a single Quicken - a second level slot instead


6th level
Wizard - Arcane recovery: a third level spell. Rituals cast (X)
Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a third level spell. A single point left to use any metamagic abilities for the day

If a Sorcerer uses a single Quicken a second level slot instead and a single point leftover

7th level
Wizard - Arcane recovery: a fourth level spell. Rituals cast (X)
Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a fourth level spell. A single point left to use any metamagic abilities for the day

If a Sorcerer uses a single Quicken a third level slot instead

8th level
Wizard - Arcane recovery: a fourth level spell. Rituals cast (X)
Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a fifth level spell. A single point left to use any metamagic abilities for the day

If a Sorcerer uses a single Quicken a fourth level slot only

9th
Wizard - Arcane recovery: a fifth level spell. Rituals cast (X)
Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a fifth level spell and a first level spell. No points left to use any metamagic abilities for the day

If a Sorcerer uses a single Quicken a Fifth level slot only


So, to repeat. If a sorcerer acts like a sorcerer, by only using a metamagic like Quicken once over the day. They are suddenly behind the wizard until 8th level where they match. Which is what I was saying. If the sorcerer acts like a sorcerer (ie uses their unique mechanic) then they almost immediately fall behind the wizard.

And I know, they aren't forced to use metamagic, they can decide to not use it. But that is their class identity. Their class identity is not "match the wizard with a smaller spell selection and no ritual casting", it isn't "cast more high level spells and burn out" it is supposed to be "use metamagic to alter magic in ways other classes can't"

You can mend your metamagic however you choose. This isn't something you can whiteroom analyze. It all depends on the adventure, the encounters, the monsters, your party. You literally cannot place a value on metamagic, it is both unique and based on the situation. Whether or not a 2nd level spell is worth twinning dominate monster is completely up to you (it certainly would be to me) and the situation. I would not need metamagic in an encounter with 2 goblins. I would need an extra 2nd level spell to cast levitate because that it a unique need. If that was an encounter, using up metamagic was more worthy than not.

Really? You want to claim that Metamagic can't be quantified because it is too unique? Well, you can't quantify any spellcasters abilities at all then. Because every spell is unique. In fact, wizards get more unique spells so they are even more unquantifiable than sorcerers.

If you are going to hide behind "it is too situational to ever determine its value" then we will never get anywhere.

Font of magic.

Yes.

Yes. The third unique thing is converting low level spell slots to high level spell slots.

Well, we've proven you wrong actually. They can only cast more spells than the wizard at 8th level or higher (when most games go to 10th) and that is completely ignoring rituals. So, if the sorcerers ability is supposed to be "cast more spells over the course of the day" then they fail.

Font of Magic has two uses. Making spell slots. Using Metamagic. Since we have proven that making spell slots is not the point, that leaves metamagic.

And turning low level spells into high level spells seems like a devil's bargain to me. Shield is a spell I've seen spammed on casters (mostly enemy ones) more than anything else. Even at 10th level getting that +5 to AC is worth it to prevent all that incoming damage. Every single 1st level spell slot you devour, is one less shield. Maybe second levels? But, hold person can be clutch as well. Or an Enhance Ability to do some utility.

Sure, devour all those shields and enhance abilities you could have cast, and you can get four Banishments. But is that really worth it? Banishment might take a single enemy out of the fight, but Shield can protect you from ten incoming attacks and prevent dozens of damage you might have taken.

You should compare 3rd level features with 3rd level features and 2nd level features with 2nd level features. Font of Magic compares to rogue's sneak attacks and paladin's smites.

Metamagic compares differently. Sorcerers get to choose their subclass at level 1, so let's compare what features classes of a similar structure get at level 3:

Clerics get...hm...well, uh, 2nd level spells.

Wizards get...hm...well, uh, 2nd level spells again.

Ah, warlocks get their pact boons. Just like Metamagic, Pact Boons are unique to warlocks, yet they're not "their defining class feature." Defining class features are not at level 3, they're at level 2.

It's a sorcerer's Font of Magic. Yes, font of magic is incredibly powerful and should be given its dues. A sorcerer can do quite well without having used metamagic at all if they have good knowledge of how to use Font of Magic to manipulate their spell slots in a way that no other spellcaster can.

Wrong again, at least about warlocks. Boons are an integral part of their design. A pact of the Blade opens them up to gishing, pact of the tome gives them more spells and rituals, pact of the chain makes them a pet class. This defines the warlock you are playing to a large extent.

And it is interesing you want to compare them at the level they are. Becuase at level 3 most classes get their sublcass, which is a major decision point. And I would certainly say that deciding if you are a champion or an Eldritch knight is defining moment for the fighter class.

Plus, Font of magic cannot be the defining trait of the sorcerer, it cannot be. Because Font of Magic's only use at level 2 is to make a single 1st level spell slot. The exact same as the Wizard's Arcane Recovery. And as we have shown, for the majority of the levels between 2nd and 10th, a sorcerer who only uses Font of magic to increase their spell slots for the day is gaining the same number of spells as the Wizard's Arcane recovery.

The "defining feature" of the sorcerer does nothing more than make them a crappy wizard. Unless they take the Devil's bargain, rip away their low slots and cast a few more big slots. Can they do "fine" that way? Sure. But if that was the design intent, why not just give them higher level slots all the time and let them break them into smaller ones? Why make the conversion rate so that a 1st level slot turned into points does not come back out as a 1st level slot if you turn those same number of points back?

Yeah, um....no.

Purely in terms of spell slot recovery, Font of Magic is better in two ways than Arcane Recovery (bonus action instead of short rest, and more slots recovered). The only thing Arcane Recovery has going for it is that you can restore 6th level slots, and Font caps out at 5th nothing. (fixed)

Plus (or alternatively) you can use it for extremely powerful metamagic.

Imagine if Arcane Recovery came with one more sentence, "Alternately, you can spend Arcane Recovery as a bonus action and (insert stupid amounts of damage.)". Wouldn't that be...freakin' awesome? (Although it still wouldn't be as good as Font of Magic + Metamagic. Closer, though.)

Look, I agree with you that the Sorcerer needs more flavor to distinguish it thematically from Wizard. Which you could also solve by changing how the Wizard works: all that's needed is more daylight between them. (However, the Wizard is more established in D&D, so it makes more sense to mess with the Sorcerer.)

But power ain't the problem. The Sorcerer has plenty.

As I showed in my breakdown, they do not get more spell slots until 8th level or higher. Until then it is equal.

So, if font of magic is supposed to give you more spell slots than arcane recovery, it fails.

And the bonus action is nice, I won't say it isn't. But if you want to pull off, say, turning two 2nd level spells and a 1st level spell into a 3rd level spell. That takes 4 bonus actions. Again, this is great if you aren't in combat and don't need it right now. But if you do, then, not so great.

I'll do you one better. I'll point out that no one cares. Well, almost no one. You obviously care a great deal. That's fine. You have other options. For those of us who enjoy resource management, and more accurately mismanagement, the sorcerer is awesome! It's one of the few character options available in 5e where YOU AS A PLAYER can make meaningful decisions about how challenging a series of encounters will be. If you want to horde all your goodies for the BBEG like console players horde mana pots it is a completely viable choice. If you want to rattle off a ton of 1st level spells its a viable choice. If you want to nuke that lone goblin sentry into the anals of history and pop cantrips for the rest of the day it is also an option. Is it optimized? Why even ask?

Well, if you don't care about class balance that is fine. In fact that is perfect.

That way if we ever get WoTC to change it to be better balanced, you still won't care.

Win Win

To me this sounds a little bit like arguing that subclass abilities that consume Channel Divinity are bad because you have to choose between them and the base class use for it.

But I think I get what @Chaosmancer is saying:

Because Font of Magic is kinda sorta equivalent to Arcane Recovery, we can say that the two classes get about the same number of slots per day. So let's call the two classes equal (so far).

However, Wizards get to know a lot more spells. Not only do they get Int modifier more spells known on any given day, they can also swap them out after any long rest, choosing from any in their spell book. Score one point for Wizards.

Sorcerers, on the other hand, get to juice up their spells with metamagic. Score one for the Sorcerer.

"Hold on!" says chaosmancer, "Metamagic is powered through Sorcery Points, and we already spent those on spell slot recovery. In weighing the Sorcerer against the Wizard we can include either Font of Magic or Metamagic, but not both!"

If that's the argument, I think it does make sense logically. But I disagree that it makes the Sorcerer strictly inferior. If the Sorcerer had both the recovery and the metamagic, it would be too much.

That is the start of the argument in a nutshell. We can only use Font of Magic or use Metamagic. You can't get both.

But then it gets worse. You have to account for the fact that wizard's get ritual casting. +1 for them

You also have to account for the fact that close to half of the subclass abilities for sorcerers also use Sorcery Points, meaning you now have a third source of strain on the single pool -1 for sorcerers especially since Wizard's do not have this limitation on their subclass abilities. (For a quick list Elemental Resilience and Draconic Prescence for Dragon, Bend Luck for the Wild Sorcerer, Empowered Healing for Divine, Eyes of the Dark's darkness, Hound if Ill Omen, and Umbral form for Shadow)

And then you have the problems with metamagic itself.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

To me this sounds a little bit like arguing that subclass abilities that consume Channel Divinity are bad because you have to choose between them and the base class use for it.

But I think I get what @Chaosmancer is saying:

Because Font of Magic is kinda sorta equivalent to Arcane Recovery, we can say that the two classes get about the same number of slots per day. So let's call the two classes equal (so far).

However, Wizards get to know a lot more spells. Not only do they get Int modifier more spells known on any given day, they can also swap them out after any long rest, choosing from any in their spell book. Score one point for Wizards.

Sorcerers, on the other hand, get to juice up their spells with metamagic. Score one for the Sorcerer.

"Hold on!" says chaosmancer, "Metamagic is powered through Sorcery Points, and we already spent those on spell slot recovery. In weighing the Sorcerer against the Wizard we can include either Font of Magic or Metamagic, but not both!"

If that's the argument, I think it does make sense logically. But I disagree that it makes the Sorcerer strictly inferior. If the Sorcerer had both the recovery and the metamagic, it would be too much.

EDIT: I've been thinking about Sorcerers a lot over the last couple of weeks, and my favorite solution is (still)....drumroll...my own:

• Expanded spell list by subclass, with one spell at each spell level from 1 to 5
• Bonus spells can be cast for as many sorcery points as their level.*
• OR if you cast bonus spells using spell slots, you get one free sorcery point to spend on that spell

If that sounds a little whimpy, consider that if a 5th level sorcerer cast ONLY bonus spells with all their slots they would have gotten 7 free sorcery points, compared to the 5 sorcery points they get by default. So the more you stick to your theme, the greater the rewards.

The tricky part, I'll acknowledge, is that the incentive to cast bonus spells is so great that the bonus spell list could really make or break the subclass.

*I really like the thing in Shadow Sorcerer where if you cast it with a slot you can see through it, and at first I wanted to come up with something like that for every single bonus spell for every single subclass. But that started to feel too complex/fiddly for 5e, and I think what I've got there is already powerful enough.

While this is a start and a decent idea, we also have to acknowledge a couple of things, first as previously discussed not all metamagics are created equal; some are better than others and which are optimal changes depending on the game/situation. Frankly they should've designed metamagics to all cost the same number of points and balanced accordingly, or no more than one point of difference. Any metamagic that costs more than 2 points is frankly extremely costly for a long rest resource even if the effect is powerful and I'd have rather they capped the cost at 2 points and balanced them.

We can definitely make the case that font of magic is perhaps their primary use and I do not belittle the versatility in turning lower level slots (which admittedly start to become lackluster outside of rare spells like shield (especially given that most cantrips out damage 1st and even some 2nd level spells eventually.

However that all aside, if we continue your line of reasoning, the sorcerer ends up falling short of the wizard by quite a bit for multiple reasons; not only do they have significantly fewer spells to pick from due to a stunted list that damn near forces them to play a blaster (and practically forces them to be a FIRE mage at that...which is a whole other topic of discussion), but when you compare subclasses.

I'd assume here is the point where one would argue that clearly the subclasses are equal because both gain a similar amount of abilities, but this goes to a point in Chaosmancer's argument. Using your logic we are either using spell points for metamagic or font of magic, which means we now have no points left for any subclass abilities. Wizards get free use of all their other class features gained from subclasses while more than half the sorcerer archetypes have abilities that use spell points.

Frankly NO archetype should have an ability that costs spell points to use. Period. That even one does is criminal. That wotc keeps making more origins that use spell points is just adding salt to the wound, doubly so when their damn incessant need to keep churning out "metamagic lite" wizard schools that let them tweak spells as subclasses. If even one of those sees an official release it is a major blow against sorcerers.

If sorcerers had been designed so that spell points regained on short rest like ki and had all their abilities use them as a resource it would be one thing. The only reason I don't house rule as such is because I've yet to figure out a fix to keeping them from abusing spell slot regen through font of magic.

It harkens back to part of the real issue of the class, it's a hodgepodge of half-baked ideas that all have numerous ways to tweak and "fix" it in whatever way a DM selectively feels the sorcerer should be. I personally feel origins should've been the real focus of the class, or if not that metamagic. To pathfinder 2's credit, I absolutely love how their sorcerer gets and entirely different spell list based on which bloodline they pick (albeit even there not all are created equal).

I also second Chaosmancer's assertion that the sorcerer has the least build diversity of any class. In my opinion fire [dragon] sorcerers, lighting [dragon] sorcerers, devine souls, and (in heavy social games only) sorcerers who focus on manipulative charms/illusions are all on an appropriate strength level, albeit the last one needs a damned sorcerer archetype dedicated to charm/illusions already! All other builds are lackluster and fall short due to lack of access to spells that make their intended builds work from the stunted spell list (all other blaster elements or someone who wants to be a battlefield controller), are too spell point costly (shadow), or are too DM contingent (wild) in order to actually shine.

I still stand by the case that warlock and sorcerer should've been the same class, with warlock casting, and spell points being used to power invocations (metamagics should've been invocations), and the roleplaying fluff be you choose the source of how your magic manifests. I.e. a fiend sorcerer could've either had fiendish blood or made a pact with a fiend, a fey blooded sorcerer might had a dryad grandma or unicorn they met in the woods that saved them, etc.

The design space is frankly limiting between them as is. That we don't have a fey sorcerer is directly because of the warlock and that each unearthed arcana for both classes has been often edging closer towards each other's official subclasses is likely not a coincidence.

I think at minimum though most would agree that origin giving a few extra spells would help a long way, if nothing else.

 

[Asisreo]

3rd level
Wizard - Arcane recovery: a second level spell. Rituals cast (X)
Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a second level spell. No points left to use any metamagic abilities for the day

If sorcerer uses a Single Quicken - No spells gained

Let's stop you right here and appreciate the fact that you completely glossed over the fact the wizard only had one choice to use it's resource, but a sorcerer had 2.

4th level
Wizard - Arcane recovery: a second level spell. Rituals cast (X)
Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a second level spell. A single point left to use any metamagic abilities for the day
If a sorcerer uses a single Quicken - Sorcerer gains a 1st level slot instead

The sorcerer gets the wizard's recovered spell and an extra metamagic? Sounds like a buff to me.

5th level
Wizard - Arcane recovery: a third level spell. Rituals cast (X)
Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a third level spell. No points left to use any metamagic abilities for the day

Huh, same as the wizard. Let's take a break right here to discuss ritual casting: what can you do?

At this point, you have 10 spells in your spellbook. You cannot replace a spell with another one, you're committed to the spells you chose. You can also have 10 spells prepared, so basically you have every spell you know prepared. The thing about ritual spells is that they take up what you could've chosen for a different, more useful spell. If you choose "magic mouth" as a ritual, you are stuck with that ritual rather than any other 2nd-level spell you could've chosen. 10 is a big list, yes, but it's still not the biggest list of spells.

In fact, Druids and Clerics have you tied for spells prepared and they have full access to all their spell class list, not just the ones they has to choose out. They also have ritual casting. Even Arcane Recovery isn't unique since Druids get Natural Recovery. Wizards have the largest spell list, but they don't have the most access to it.

Even a sorcerer doesn't have to commit to their spells. If they realize Hold Person isn't doing anything for them, they can switch out their spells on level up. Wizards can prepare spells, but they cannot change what they put in their spellbook without DM fiat.

If sorcerer uses a single Quicken - a second level slot instead

6th level
Wizard - Arcane recovery: a third level spell. Rituals cast (X)
Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a third level spell. A single point left to use any metamagic abilities for the day

Wrong. The sorcerer gets access to a fourth level spellslot. Yes, they can make spell slots larger than they can know, for the purposes of upcasting.

If a Sorcerer uses a single Quicken a second level slot instead and a single point leftover

I like how you use Quicken as a metric as if it's the gods' most sacred metamagic ever. Quicken only lets you do a cantrip on top of your action. Maybe dodge or hide if you're in that kind of position. Quicken isn't all that great. If anything, you should checking out twin. Twin lets you concentrate on 2 targets.

7th level
Wizard - Arcane recovery: a fourth level spell. Rituals cast (X)
Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a fourth level spell. A single point left to use any metamagic abilities for the day

sigh... wrong. Again. A sorcerer can make a 5th level spell slot.

If a Sorcerer uses a single Quicken a third level slot instead

Did you just forget they can make higher level spells? Or did you just not read me?

8th level
Wizard - Arcane recovery: a fourth level spell. Rituals cast (X)
Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a fifth level spell. A single point left to use any metamagic abilities for the day

If a Sorcerer uses a single Quicken a fourth level slot only

9th
Wizard - Arcane recovery: a fifth level spell. Rituals cast (X)
Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a fifth level spell and a first level spell. No points left to use any metamagic abilities for the day

If a Sorcerer uses a single Quicken a Fifth level slot only


So, to repeat. If a sorcerer acts like a sorcerer, by only using a metamagic like Quicken once over the day. They are suddenly behind the wizard until 8th level where they match. Which is what I was saying. If the sorcerer acts like a sorcerer (ie uses their unique mechanic) then they almost immediately fall behind the wizard.

Yeah, sure. If for some reason, the sorcerer felt compelled to quicken, if he even has that metamagic, then he can't recover just as much until level 8. Well, good thing the sorcerer isn't some sort of quicken addict that can tell when a spell isn't worth quickening.

And I know, they aren't forced to use metamagic, they can decide to not use it. But that is their class identity. Their class identity is not "match the wizard with a smaller spell selection and no ritual casting", it isn't "cast more high level spells and burn out" it is supposed to be "use metamagic to alter magic in ways other classes can't"

This leads back into my point that wizards are way more static than people seem to realize. You can't change spells on level up, you can't replace low level spells (not the slots, the actual spells) with more high level spells, you can't change what your ritual spells are. There isn't even that many good ritual spells, you can have unseen servant, find familiar, detect magic, identify.

None of these have combat applications either.

Really? You want to claim that Metamagic can't be quantified because it is too unique? Well, you can't quantify any spellcasters abilities at all then. Because every spell is unique. In fact, wizards get more unique spells so they are even more unquantifiable than sorcerers.

Wizards have access to more unique spells, except bards have access to every spell in every class.

If you are going to hide behind "it is too situational to ever determine its value" then we will never get anywhere.

Not hiding anything. I'm showing you the plain truth that you want to cover. You can't compare metamagic to anything. It's value fluctuates, just like anything else with a resource. The value of a material fluctuates based on whether someone needs it. A cereal company has no use for quartz but a watch company might want one. Whether a spell is valuable also fluctuates, depending on the campaign. It's why some wizards have mage armor & magic missile while another has burning hands and shield.

Well, we've proven you wrong actually. They can only cast more spells than the wizard at 8th level or higher (when most games go to 10th) and that is completely ignoring rituals. So, if the sorcerers ability is supposed to be "cast more spells over the course of the day" then they fail.

Mmm, no. They can cast more powerful spells than a wizard starting at level 6.

Font of Magic has two uses. Making spell slots. Using Metamagic. Since we have proven that making spell slots is not the point, that leaves metamagic.

Font of magic has one-and-only-one use: converting spells. That's what font of magic is. That's all font of magic is. You haven't proven anything, you just listed an incorrect list of what wizards can recover and what sorcerers can recover.

And turning low level spells into high level spells seems like a devil's bargain to me. Shield is a spell I've seen spammed on casters (mostly enemy ones) more than anything else. Even at 10th level getting that +5 to AC is worth it to prevent all that incoming damage. Every single 1st level spell slot you devour, is one less shield. Maybe second levels? But, hold person can be clutch as well. Or an Enhance Ability to do some utility.

Lol, hold person can fall off when you fight anything that isn't humanoid. Plus, it's a wis save they can repeat.

Sure, devour all those shields and enhance abilities you could have cast, and you can get four Banishments. But is that really worth it? Banishment might take a single enemy out of the fight, but Shield can protect you from ten incoming attacks and prevent dozens of damage you might have taken.

This whole "but my shield..." argument is precisely what I'm trying to get across to you. I don't know if hypothetical sorcerer man needs 4 banishments. He might need 4 Dimension Doors. Or he might need 4 Polymorphs. Or he might need a grand total of 0 4th level spells for his whole career and guess what? He can turn those unnecessary 4th level spells into 2 1st-level spells each. If shield is so important, a sorcerer can cast it 27 times a day maximum. Don't ask me if a sorcerer will need that, because there's no way for me to know that given 0 context. But the fact they can cast shield that many times at 10th level while a wizard can only cast it 20 times maximum with exactly the same type of resource expenditure, that means something.

Wrong again, at least about warlocks. Boons are an integral part of their design. A pact of the Blade opens them up to gishing, pact of the tome gives them more spells and rituals, pact of the chain makes them a pet class. This defines the warlock you are playing to a large extent.

But would you call your pact boon your "defining trait" as a warlock? Would you tout it around as if it's what made you so special? I don't know, maybe you would. But I would lean into my invocations and my spell slot short rest mechanism.

And it is interesing you want to compare them at the level they are. Becuase at level 3 most classes get their sublcass, which is a major decision point. And I would certainly say that deciding if you are a champion or an Eldritch knight is defining moment for the fighter class.

So that would mean sorcerers get their defining feature at level 1 because they get to choose a subclass then.

Plus, Font of magic cannot be the defining trait of the sorcerer, it cannot be. Because Font of Magic's only use at level 2 is to make a single 1st level spell slot. The exact same as the Wizard's Arcane Recovery. And as we have shown, for the majority of the levels between 2nd and 10th, a sorcerer who only uses Font of magic to increase their spell slots for the day is gaining the same number of spells as the Wizard's Arcane recovery.

It can't be because...a wizard has arcane recovery? Which takes a short rest while a font of magic can be a candid decision? And that's your assertion why font of magic can't be a defining feature even though it can completely change the way anyone can use the class?

The "defining feature" of the sorcerer does nothing more than make them a crappy wizard. Unless they take the Devil's bargain, rip away their low slots and cast a few more big slots. Can they do "fine" that way? Sure. But if that was the design intent, why not just give them higher level slots all the time and let them break them into smaller ones? Why make the conversion rate so that a 1st level slot turned into points does not come back out as a 1st level slot if you turn those same number of points back?

You're so evocative with your "devil's bargain" bit like casting higher level spells at the cost of lower level spell slots will remove your soul and sacrifice your firstborn child. They can go the opposite way, too, which is why there's a whole conversion thing. You can turn a 4th level spell into 2 1st level spells as you seen before. So you have more opportunities opened up to you.

As I showed in my breakdown, they do not get more spell slots until 8th level or higher. Until then it is equal.

So, if font of magic is supposed to give you more spell slots than arcane recovery, it fails.

Except it doesn't. You kept using quicken to artificially take away sorcery points and reduce spell level when it's perfectly valid to have actually wanted to just subtle spell or distant a spell.

That is the start of the argument in a nutshell. We can only use Font of Magic or use Metamagic. You can't get both.

You literally get both. You can legitimately have both font of magic and metamagic on the same turn at level 3, as soon as it's possible. It's not that small of a resource.

But then it gets worse. You have to account for the fact that wizard's get ritual casting. +1 for them

You also have to account for the fact that close to half of the subclass abilities for sorcerers also use Sorcery Points, meaning you now have a third source of strain on the single pool -1 for sorcerers especially since Wizard's do not have this limitation on their subclass abilities. (For a quick list Elemental Resilience and Draconic Prescence for Dragon, Bend Luck for the Wild Sorcerer, Empowered Healing for Divine, Eyes of the Dark's darkness, Hound if Ill Omen, and Umbral form for Shadow)

Oh no! More choices in my spellcasting class! Ah! The horror! If only I could just choose when I do things.

And then you have the problems with metamagic itself.

What? They stole your lunch money? People compare Careful to Evocation wizard as if choosing a whole subclass wasn't a big commitment. It's decent if you want to keep someone out of cloud of daggers or Web or Fear or if you want to protect yourself. Or if you're doing a particularly nasty AoE. Distant is good for touch spells like cure wounds or spells with limited distance like suggestion which requires you to be within "move and hit" distance; it also fiddles with those "in range" type spells like teleport and mass suggestion. Empowered is really good with AoE's since they increase the damage shared; an empowered fireball hits roughly 4 targets and those rerolls turns 1s and 2s into much better damage pee target. Extend is good when you are casting a spell you need for long periods right before finishing a long rest. You can cast extend mage as armor 1 minute before a long rest and have mage armor the entirety of the rest of the day until the next long rest. Also, delayed blast fireball's maximum damage increases by another 10d6 at the price of 1 sorcery point.

Heightened is amazing at higher levels, which is where I'd recommend picking it up as your third or fourth metamagic. When creatures have high saves, granting disadvantage on a 7th or 8th level spell can be devastating, and at that point, you probably have more sorcery points than you know how to use.

Apparently you like quickened so much, so we'll leave it be (even though it isn't that amazing imo). Subtle is great in social situations and against a counterspell guy. Twinned is amazing, it lets you concentrate on two of the same effects at once; things like Haste and Polymorph are classic but you can twin Banishment or Hold Monster.